Talk:Suzumiya Haruhi:Volume1 Chapter1

Suzumiya Haruhi's language

This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass". Psieye toned it down to "awesome". Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass." -- Baltakatei 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style. Psieye 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)

I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is:

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。 Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--Cruzz 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

No excuse here. I was being radical. Personally I feel that this translation corresponds closest to the actual undertone of the phase.

I wanted to go for the really literal route- what an English speaker may say in that situation.

--Thelastguardian 14:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Vague/Awkward sounding phrases

As I work on fixing up the various grammar, I keep coming across some phrases that sound odd, but which I am unsure what to do with. I hesitate to change them around too much on my own, so I'll list whatever ones I find here for discussion. --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

"Normal humans don't interest me. If anyone here is an alien, from the future, from a different dimension, or an esper, then come find me! That is all."

On one of SH's official wallpapers, the line is translated as the following in the ever so amusing Engrish style- man of doesn't have the interest. Please come to me If you are Alien, TimeTraveler, Another world person, ESP. That's it... --Thelastguardian 14:46, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The fansub for the anime translates the equivalent line to something quite similar, so it seems pretty accurate, to me. --Ryukaiser 16:53, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

She didn't carry a lunch box, so I guessed she went to the cafeteria to enjoy her lunch

I changed "guessed" to "had assumed" - it seems a bit clearer to me, but still seems awkward. (I'd have left it as "had guessed", but that sounds even worse.) --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is the "had" really necessary in "had assumed"? Why not just "so I assumed she went to the cafeteria..."? It's simpler and carries the same message. --Baltakatei 23:06, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, to me, since the story is narrated in past tense, just "I assumed" could cause some confusion, as it kind of implies he did so throughout the story, while "had assumed" says he did so at that time. The latter seems to be more accurate, to me. Others may disagree, though. --Ryukaiser 23:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I see what you mean. The "had" is a good choice. --Baltakatei 23:34, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suddenly want to see her hairstyle on Sunday.

This phrase bothers me a bit. From what I can tell, as he is narrating the story / remembering the events, he suddenly gets really curious about what her hair looked like on Sunday (which is very understandable). So, it should probably be in present tense, like it already is. What bothers me, though, is that Kyon should know, as he's relating events from the past, that she stops following that pattern, so, while his want is in the present, what he wants to see is something from the past. The best I can do to make it sound better is "I suddenly want to see what her hair would have looked like on a Sunday." but I don't know. What does anyone else think? --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm, I automatically assumed that he got that urge to see her Sunday hair when he first figured out the pattern. Your interpretation works too though... either way I guess this phrase does need changing, but which way? --Psieye 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I had assumed that as well, but now that Ryukaiser mentions it, I think it should go to with the "would have looked like" thing. I guess we need to see the original translation to really tell? --Adelina 10:44, 21 April 2006 (CST)

I agree with using the present tense in Kyon's musings about the hair styles. I think the "would have looked like" phrase works well without having the original Japanese on hand. --Baltakatei 23:12, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

It is as if to her, the guys are pumpkins or potato sacks, and she couldn't care less.

The ever-present tense issue. Have we come to a consensus about what tense these kind of phrases should be in? I changed it to past tense because, well, the description relates to her actions in the past. She may or may not still think that, but the actions which gave him that impression happened in the past. --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I think we need to ascertain one thing first before we can discuss what should and shouldn't be in present tense - what is 'the present' for Kyon's narration? As in, is he telling this story years after the end of all possible Suzumiya Haruhi novels or is he living out his experiences as the novels get written? I'm inclined to think the latter - specifically that 'the present' for Kyon for Chapter 1 is a few days after the SOS-dan was formed. As in, chapter 1 is about him recounting the backstory up to his 'present time' of being in the newly formed SOS-dan.

Using my assumption above, it's easy to say that the above phrase should stay as "It's as if to her, guys are..." Question is, how valid is my assumption of when 'the present' is? --Psieye 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

What is that girl trying to pull?

Kyon should know by now what she was up to, as he asks her about it later, so just changing it to past tense won't work. On the other hand, none of Kyon's other dialogue has anything like "I said" or "I wondered" or whatever, so it is difficult to make it clear that it is something he wondered at the time. I have no idea what to do with this one. --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Mayhaps a complete rephrasing to something like "Her actions were so enigmatic" or "Her motives were an unfathomable mystery"? --Psieye 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Heh "unfathomable"... IMHO, I believe the phrase is fine as it is. The reader doesn't know what Haruhi was doing so Kyon is politely expressing his wonder at the time without giving any spoilers. Also, since large illustrations are used to accompany each page, I believe that the novel tries to involve the reader as much as possible. When I read the passage in question, I imagined seeing an illustration of Haruhi grinning mischeviously from Kyon's point of view. Maybe such thoughts stem from my exposure to the animated version of the novel. --Baltakatei 23:46, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

In the middle of all this mess there is always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrives quietly.

This phrase sorta confuses me. All what mess? Perpetrator of what? How does "May arrives quietly" relate to the rest of the sentence? Maybe I'm just missing something obvious, I don't know. --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it to mean that there were a great many rumours, uproars, disturbances etc which could all be somehow traced back to Haruhi. "May arrives" I interpret as 'in the midst of this chaos, May arrived.' Yeah, I guess this phrase does need to be re-written for greater clarity. --Psieye 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Yeah, I'll bug a translator and get this clarified. :) --Baltakatei 00:00, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I (FON) was the translator that was bugged, and this is copied from my talk page:

Since you apparently have access to the original Japanese novel here's a question. In Chapter 1 Kyon says:

In the middle of all this mess there was always only one perpetrator: Haruhi – May arrived quietly.

In this passage, Kyon implies that all disturbances at the school are related to Haruhi's antics. In contrast, May is said to arrive without significant events occuring. Does the original Japanese contain this conflict? -- Baltakatei 23:59, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Glad to assist. The original passage (end of page 25 in the novel) is

そんなこんなをしながら～～もっとも、そんなこんなをしていたのはハルヒだけだったが～～五月がやってくる。

sonnakonna o shinagara -- mottomo, sonnakonna shite ita no wa Haruhi dakedatta ga -- gogatsu yatte kuru.

Or in other words:

"As this and that was happening -- although, it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrived."

That's the literal translation, and I think the translation you cited above is perhaps a bit too free.

--Freak Of Nature 02:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

After some thought, I've reached the conclusion that the sentence should be:

"As this and that is happening -- although it was always Haruhi doing this and that, however -- May arrives."

This preserves Kyon's weird tenses throughout the sentence -- notice how the primary sentence is in present tense, whereas the secondary clause is in past tense. This is really most exasperating for a translator.

I've made the change in the text to this sentence.

--Freak Of Nature 02:39, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

What the hell does Earth want?! If this continues I would get Yellow Fever!

Another of Kyon's internal dialogues. The second part should probably be "If this continued, I would get Yellow Fever!" and I changed it as such, but I have no idea what to do with the first. --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I took it simply as a figure of speech, an exclaimation. If we are to change that first part, try to find a more familiar exclaimation I guess: e.g. just shortening it to "What the hell?" --Psieye 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm amused at the "What the hell does Earth want?!" It's not a phrase you hear often or at all. It also doesn't sound like something a translator can make up. --Baltakatei 00:05, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

It's a pretty accurate translation of the original text, which is:

地球はいったい何がやりたいんだろう。黄熱病にでもかかってるんじゃないか。

chikyuu wa ittai nani ga yaritain darou. ounetsubyou ni demo kakatterun ja nai ka.

I take it to mean that Kyon is anthropomorphizing the Earth, as an entity that is actively out to get him, by deliberately placing weather and natural obstacles in his path.

As for the Yellow Fever thing? Well, either he means "jaundice" (although that would be 黄疸 oudan), or we can chalk it down to the rather unscientific (superstitious, even) Japanese attitude to disease and health issues. Yellow Fever is a contagious disease that is spread to humans by infected mosquitos in tropical regions, but in Japan there is still an almost 19th century-ish belief that contagious diseases can arise from exertion or exhaustion. It's amusing, really -- I'm a medical historian, and I see this sort of thing all the time, in European texts from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

--Freak Of Nature 03:17, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm sure that readers will be just as confused as we editors were with this, but now we have an explanation it's much clearer. I think we should have a page for translator's notes so that the readers and editors won't be so confused. --Adelina 07:22, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed. Somewhere to explain references that can be lost across the cultures is necessary - we're translating across cultures as well as languages afterall.

--Psieye 09:37, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

He lay his sports jacket on his shoulders; his shirt is wrinkled throughout his chest.

I am guessing the first part should be "His sports jacket layed on his shoulders," and I've changed it to that. I am not sure what to do with the second part, though. --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

I suggest "shirt was wrinkled across his chest" *makes that minor edit* --Psieye 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

"across" is a good word to use. I concur. --Baltakatei 00:07, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

The passage in question (on page 26 of the novel) is:

「よ、キョン」

後ろから肩を叩かれた。谷口だった。

ブレザーをだらしなく肩に引っかけ、ネクタイをよれよれに結んだニヤケ面で、

「ゴールデンウィークはどっか行ったか？」

__

"Hey, Kyon."

From behind, somebody clapped me on the shoulder. It was Taniguchi.

His blazer hung slovenly on his shoulders, his necktie was wrinkled and skewed to one side.

"Where did you go for Golden Week?"

__

I've taken the liberty of making this correction in the text. --Freak Of Nature 15:38, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Frankly, topics like what dreams people have, or how amazing or cute someone's pet is are, in my book, are some of the dullest topics in the world.

I don't like the "is are" part of this sentence. I mean, I understand why it is there, but it looks awkward. The best idea I have is to put a comma after the phrase "or how amazing or cute someone's pet is," but it still looks awkward to me. And that's where I'll end my proofreading of chapter 1 for now. I'll pick it back up sometime later. --Ryukaiser 05:51, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh, then let's break it up into two sentences *makes that minor edit too* --Psieye 08:55, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Good call. --Baltakatei 00:12, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

My grandma was the one who first called me that.

『最初に言い出だしたのは叔母の一人だったように記憶している。』

My mistake. I used the Chinese edition to translate and it was a mistake. The original Japanese version says "one of my aunts". I checked the Japanese volume to make sure it says aunts.

Found on MegaTokyo. Strangely enough no one tried to correct the mistake. I really hope people just correct it- if you notice the mistake, correct it.

--Thelastguardian 02:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

But, just as I was still part of this class, there were always people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.

(alt translation from Cruzz's site.)

But it's not like there weren't people who hadn't understood yet, who didn't have an eye for this kind of thing. There still were classmates who'd try to talk about something to Suzumiya Haruhi, who was always scowling and making a line with her lips as if she was in a bad mood.

Possible change:

But there were still those who hadn't understood yet. There were still people who wanted to talk to the eyebrow-locking, mouth-scowling Haruhi.

--The naming game 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As this and that was happening -- although it was always Haruhi at the center of it all -- May arrived.

(alt translation from Cruzz's site.)

In the middle of this and that happening, well, the one doing this and that was no other than Haruhi, May arrived.

I wasn't clear on "this and that" referring to Haruhi's craziness, until I read Cruzz's translation. So perhaps a rephrase could emphasize that part?

Possible change:

As this and that was happening -- and it was always Haruhi at its center, causing it all -- May arrived.

--The naming game 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I didn't realize there was already a discussion of this phrase on the talk page. I didn't recognize it when skimming the titles because the wording had changed greatly.

--The naming game 20:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I realized it, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.

(alt translation from Cruzz's site.)

At this point I must have been possessed by some sort of evil spirit, I can't think of any other reason for this. When I came back to my senses I was talking with Haruhi.

The extra bit of meaning in Cruzz's translation is "possessed by some sort of evil spirit" -- which forms a nice parallel with the corresponding "when I came back to my senses." This small bit of wit really isn't that crucial, but I thought I'd throw this in for completeness.

Is this same parallelism there in the original?

Possible change:

the only explanation I could give was that I was going nuts - by the time I regained my sanity, I found myself talking to Suzumiya Haruhi.

--The naming game 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

She always has this aspiration that she would soon meet the supernatural world that I abandoned long ago, and she enthusiastically tries to achieve her dream.

(alt translation from Cruzz's site.)

Even now, she's eagerly waiting for that chance meeting with the paranormal, something I gave up on a long time ago. And she's certainly taking an active approach at it.

I can't really comment meaning-wise on either one. I believe Cruzz's runs more smoothly in English -- the only thing I'd change is "approach at it" to "approach to it."

--The naming game 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

I pressed my numbing back head and turned around slowly.

(alt translation from Cruzz's site.)

Turning back forward holding my ringing head, ...

Suggested change:

I turned back slowly, holding my ringing head.

--The naming game 13:47, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

...all the tables were moved out into the corridor...

My knowledge of the contents of Japanese classrooms is limited to what I've seen in various School animes, but it seems to me that "tables" should be changed to "desks" in the paragraph:

"Once I came to the classroom in the morning and discovered that all the tables were moved out to the corridor, or that there were printed stars on the school roof. Another time she was going around the school posting curse papers all over the place...you know, those Chinese vampire ones where you put the paper talisman on a vampire's forehead. I just can't understand her."

If this is a language issue (i.e. Japanese does not distinguish between desks and tables in the same way as English) then it might be worth looking at other places the word "table" is used to see if the same change would be appropriate there too. Any thoughts?

--BlckKnght 23:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself.

I'm not sure if I understand this sentance correctly in the current version. Kyon thinks that Taniguchi was one of the guys Haruhi dumped?

If so, I suggest a change to something like:

Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.

--BlckKnght 23:29, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Compared to the original translation, your suggestion seems to be better BlckKnght. I think it is simply because the original of "Taniguchi had probably experienced the same thing himself." could imply that he was dumped but not neccessarily by Haruhi whereas with "Taniguchi seemed to be speaking from experience.", it becomes obvious that he got the "5-minute dump" from Haruhi.

I think the change would suit the context better.

--Da~Mike 00:25, 7 May 2006 (GMT)