Talk:Format guideline

Edit in progress. Old discussions are being moved to the forum.

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first?

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above. Please scroll down for current Discussion. Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.

Volume 04 Title Discussion

http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=284

Navigation

No one's really discussed this, so I've added a navigation bar of sorts to the bottom of all completed chapters/entries/etc. Note that I had to use hardcoded values since for some reason the main.css does not include "wikitable" or "prettytable" as a class, let alone have the values required for it. Values in question can be found here.

Please use the following example source code at the end of each chapter when you are finished with it:

{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Return to [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Main Page]]
| Back to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Chapter 1]]
| Forward to [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

Proof of Concept:

Return to Main Page

Back to Chapter 1

Forward to Chapter 3

If there are no problems with this format, please move this comment to the main page. :) -- velocity7, 7 May 2006 22:00 EDT

I like the idea, but have some small changes to suggest:

Back to Chapter 1

Up to the Main Page

Forward to Chapter 3

My changes are changing "Return to" into "Up to" and changing the order. Also, I made the whole text be part of the links, not just the name of the destinations. Take a look at the markup if you want the details.

Thanks, velocity7, for finding the markup to make this work!

--BlckKnght 19:42, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

Looks fine, have at it. :)

By the way, initially my first proposal for this was that the navigation would be at the top and bottom. Should this be kept, or is the bottom enough?

For everyone else, the new source code is as follows:

{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|Back to Chapter 1]]
| [[Suzumiya Haruhi|Up to the Main Page]]
| [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Forward to Chapter 3]]
|-
|}

-- velocity7, 7 May 2006 23:28 EDT

mmm......to be honest i'am undecided about this, it does look like a pretty interesting idea, but at the same time it is a pretty big implimentation in terms of layout and im sure there are alot of people who will fall into both camps. I think we more input from the other Project Translators,Dedicated Editors and other users before we can consider this. I don't think there is a rush at the moment as only one volume has been done, but when more are completed, i can see how this might be a benefit for those fast readers and are too lazy to go back to the previous page just to click the next chapter for the 12th time.

Onizuka-gto 21:19, 7 May 2006 (PDT)

In my opinion the code should go in a template and provide links to all chapters. You only need to add the template, e.g. {{Navbox_Volume_1}}, at the end of each chapter. See wikibooks.org for some examples. --89.53.204.166 08:12, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Ok, I've risen to the challenge and created Template:V1TOC:

Volume 1 - The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi / 第一巻: 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱

Color Illustrations	Prologue	Chapter 1	Chapter 2	Chapter 3	Chapter 4
Chapter 5	Chapter 6	Chapter 7	Epilogue	Author's Notes	Editor's Notes

To include it, as I did above, use this code:

{{V1TOC}}

Note that when it is included from one of the chapter pages, the current page will show up in bold and will not be a link.

If the template is edited, the included text will change on every page on which it is used (including this one!).

What does everyone think? It will certainly be easier to use templates for this kind of thing, rather than hand crafting navigation boxes on each page. I thank the anonymous editor above for the suggestion.

--BlckKnght 19:34, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

mmm...i'am abit skeptical about this....

I've thought about it, and i do agree that eventually we will need some sort of internal navigation links, but im not so sure about your "boxy" design. how about you make a dummy page so we can have a general idea of what it will look like?

Onizuka-gto 05:46, 9 May 2006 (PDT)

I like where this is going. I've modified the template a little bit; maybe width: 100% is going overboard? Also, made the table go in the center in this way, and made text in the boxes go in the center. Looks a lot simpler, no?

Onizuka-GTO: Here's an example page, with the TOC at the top. Maybe we need a second part at the bottom without the title? Suggestions?

-- velocity7, 10 May 2006 16:53 EDT

Thanks for the example page, i now know why i did not like this current design, it seems unnecessary to have a link for all the chapters.

In the other hand if it had the links for only next chapter and the previous one and was at the end of thr page, it will not disrupt the overall chapter with its minimal presents.

To be honest, i do not see why you need to have a box around the links, prehaps a simple "Previous Chapter" and "Next Chapter" would be sufficient.

Onizuka-gto 14:58, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

I have no idea how we could make the template dynamic enough to do a previous/next chapter business sort of thing. Anyone?

-- velocity7, 10 May 2006 19:21 EDT

Maybe not even dynamic, we can simply just link it to the next chapters the old fashion way....

Onizuka-gto 17:10, 10 May 2006 (PDT)

Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section?

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? [Option 1] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

• Table of contents
• References & Translator's Notes
• Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
• (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore [Option 2] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?

While i would like to have everything related to be on one page

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]

[option 2] At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

Onizuka-gto 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--Psieye 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--Psieye 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: Original Text for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); Translation Notes for my translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and Comments (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that?

--Freak Of Nature 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--Psieye 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

Onizuka-gto 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

Onizuka-gto 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--84.12.192.200 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

• mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension"

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

Onizuka-gto 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

heisa kuukan : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

shinjin : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--Freak Of Nature 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

"Those blue creatures, we call them 'Avatars', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the 'Engrams' begin their movement....."

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

Onizuka-gto 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP.

--Freak Of Nature 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity. SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious. If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think. Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget. The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

Eleutheria 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

Onizuka-gto 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

asukira 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams... why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space. Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet." (My apologies to scientologists... or not). Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

chumsize 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

• • • LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best?

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable. (^^)

My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

Onizuka-gto 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

• We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

Onizuka-gto 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"? The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think "space" or "dimension" are as good a translation as "reality", since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

Da~Mike 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean. However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

asukira 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

• Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.

(^^)

Onizuka-gto 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

asukira 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan. They were human-gods and they were huge. Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs

My vote... actual vote... no jokes... shinjin = "demigod" - the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable Heisakuukan = "dissociated space" - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

chumsize 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

Synecdoche 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;) It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

(Re: UltimaLuminaire)

The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

Synecdoche 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space". How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

Onizuka-gto 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the bike shed principle for awhile. This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

My own thoughts on what makes a good name:

1. Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
   • You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name. If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
2. Doesn't have any extra baggage. In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
   • Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
3. Doesn't have any extra baggage. Especially extra emotional baggage.
   • What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead? The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
4. Doesn't have any extra baggage. Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
   • That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings. A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
   • On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
5. Doesn't have any extra baggage.

That being said,

I'm perfectly content with

• either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" (its generic English counterpart) for the glowing giants,

and

• any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."

With respect to "Avatar":

• I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point. The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration. The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
• The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin (not the name, the thing) is "Holy hotcakes! Big glowing things! And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!" Their power, in other words.
• Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion. Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.

With respect to "dissassociated reality":

• This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that definitely has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
• Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.

Whew. In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

--The naming game 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Many thanks for the kanji asukira.

Okay, I did quite a bit of looking up regarding both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan" and I decided to break them down in to their constituent characters to try and understand how the term originated. Mind you, there's quite alot of mess associated with each character:

shinjin - 神人 Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

神 = shin = myth, religion, mystery, God, nerves(??) 人 = jin = person, people 神人 = shinjin = God person

閉 = hei = closing, going out of business 鎖 = sa = chain 閉鎖 = heisa = closing/closed down

空 = kuu = sky, air 間 = kan = between, indirect, interval (time or space) 空間 = kuukan = space, room

If we analyse the kanji and what they all refer to above, it seems quite shockingly apparent that the word "avatar" suits "shinjin" perfectly in almost every respect (except nerves of course...). The word "avatar" definitely seems to connotate the idea of an unknown, yet supernaturally powerful being in the image of a person. Moving away from whatever religious grounds I may be transgressing on to, from what I've read about the nature of the "shinjin" (from the translations provided), in my opinion, the word avatar appears to define "shinjin" aptly. (I had a feeling that if the word avatar popped up, someone would mention D&D. Although I must say that to anyone familiar to the Forgotten Realms/D&D/Ultima series, the term might seem a bit... out of place?... Being a fan of those books myself, I still support the usage of avatar as the translation.)

"Heisa" appears to be pretty straighforward here. Although commonly associated with the closing/liquidation of a business, the kanji "sa" is related to a chain, thus the interpretation of locked or sealed is less ambiguous.

"Kuukan" is as bad as I had imagined it to be. The terms of sky or space or room seems rather vague and a bit cliché. I still believe that the word "reality" better defines what it is described to be. However, I do understand the general sentiment that the word "sealed dimension" or "locked space" has a suave sound to it.

I did look up for as many possible synonyms for sealed and locked that could sound catchy. Here's the list of options:

• sealed
• bound
• locked
• confined
• restricted
• limited (very ambiguous term)
• finite = limited = bound = least ambiguous

As unambiguous as finite appeared to be, I expect there to plenty of conceptual problems with using that term, the primary being; if there is a finite reality, is there an infinte reality? That would be a headache... (same problem with limited)

As a comparison check, let's use this sentence from chapter 6:

"Sealed Realities / Bound Realities / Locked Realities / Confined Realities / Restricted Realities / Limited Realities / Finite Realities occur randomly. Sometimes it appears once every other day, and sometimes it appears once every several months. Yet, one thing's for sure..."

Based on this, I'd say either Confined Reality or Restricted Reality seems to work. (Not dissociated reality... I whole-heartedly agree with The naming game on that point.)

Da~Mike 17:31, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about this unconsciously, in the recesses of my mind (I do this a lot, when there's something bugging me), and something occurred to me. So far as I can gather, what is happening with the heisa kuukan is that a part of normal spacetime is being cut off from the rest and isolated. So... with that in mind, why not sequestered topology? Granted, it's science-fictiony, but it somehow sounds like the kind of self-important term that Koizumi might use.

On the topic of the shinjin.... the phrase "Avatars of the Id" got me thinking about the Monsters of the Id phrase from the classic SF film Forbidden Planet. In a way, the Suzumiya stories tap into a lot of the old archetypical SF memes -- what we really need now, to complete the set, is a mad scientist!

--Freak Of Nature 15:41, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My first impression of "sequestered topology" was: "Wow. What an exotic phrase! It's catchy too!... but what does it mean???" In that respect, I must say it really does enchance the understanding of how dumbfounded Kyon was when Koizumi started telling his story. However, as lovely as it sounds, we must question two primary things:

• Its relevance to the context
• To keep translations as accurate and faithful interpretation with respect to the source material

Without adhering to the latter of the two, it would become more of an adaptation rather than a translation and as far as I know, most adaptations have a habit of changing parts of a story completely. I don't think any of us want to do that so.

To examine the relevance of "sequestered topology", let's break it down into its seperate words then. (Definitions copied and paster. Courtesy of Dictionary.com)

Sequestered =

1. To cause to withdraw into seclusion.
2. To remove or set apart; segregate. See Synonyms at isolate.
3. Law.
   1. To take temporary possession of (property) as security against legal claims.
   2. To requisition and confiscate (enemy property).

Topology =

1. Topographic study of a given place, especially the history of a region as indicated by its topography.
2. Medicine. The anatomical structure of a specific area or part of the body.
3. Mathematics. The study of the properties of geometric figures or solids that are not changed by homeomorphisms, such as stretching or bending. Donuts and picture frames are topologically equivalent, for example.
4. Computer Science. The arrangement in which the nodes of a LAN are connected to each other.

First off, "topology" seems to be too vague, especially if it means a study of a place rather than being a place. Topography would be a better substitute for topology but it also pertains a greater proportion of ambiguity than either space or dimension, let alone reality.

Sequestered originally seemed to be a good match until I noticed that it's also synonomous with isolated. The naming game already pointed out his distaste for that word in conjunction with reality so I guess not.

Nice suggestion though.

--Da~Mike 00:24, 4 May 2006 (GMT)

4th May End of Topic Deadline for "Shinjin" & "Heisa Kuukan"

I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be...In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun. I guess that's why they're so popular!

Why Thank you, It's my speciality. (^-^)/

So from what comments i've read so far, I think we are getting to the end of this discussion, so i would like to place a deadline on this topic, which will be as stated above.

One of the reasons these discussions are so fun in my opinion, is for them to not drag on for too long. (^^)

So, lets lets summarise the current status.

No pseudo-scientific names, so there are no real objections to "Avatar" but further refinements are need in the form of notes, to make sepecial mention of "godlike being".

As for "Heisa Kuukan" I have the general feeling that there are no real objection to using the second word of the term "reality", as it accurately describles the phenomenon, use of "confined", "restricted", "Limited", "sealed", "locked" or "finite" is better then "dissociated", and additional notes should be appended regardlessly of what terms are chosen.

personally, if i was to choose one of those terms i do like "confined Reality".

But I can settle for "sealed Reality" as a compromise.

I can currently count in this discussion support for both terms, which at the moment would result in a deadlock.

If there is no clear choice, by the end of the deadline i will make a decision, So I appeal to other users who have yet to decide to add your own comments, to list your support or objections, before its too late.

Onizuka-gto 11:48, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

A few quick notes on "reality"

before this deadline thing rolls around. (I keep getting sucked into this discussion...)

Consider:

• "Compared to mine, yours is a confined/restricted/limited reality."
• "You live in a confined/restricted/limited reality."
• "You're out of touch with reality."

There are negative associations that aren't there if we substitute a more generic word like "space" or "dimension."

If we do end up using "reality", (and it looks like we're going to)

• I'd favor one of the less familiar sounding compounds like "bound/sealed/locked reality"
• Also, the image of the Shinjin trying to break out of the "bound/sealed/locked space/dimension/reality" fits nicely, since that's essentially what it's trying to do.
  • Now that I think of it, "confined" isn't all that bad of a choice, in this light.
  • "Breaking out of a limited/finite reality" makes the Shinjin sound like a struggling philosopher.
  • "Breaking out of an isolated reality" makes it sound like a mental patient.
  • "Breaking out of a lonely reality" makes it sound emo. (Someone stop me before I rewrite all the chapters in a self-absorbed, whiny style!)
• Conclusion: I'm fine with any terms that don't have unintended emotional/metaphysical implications.

By the way, if the natives here are still restless for something else to discuss,

please stop by the talk pages for Vol 1 Ch 1, and for Vol 1 Ch 3, or here on this page to give some input on the issues I asked about there. (Bikesheds galore!)

One more thing. ...Just realized that my chosen username is scarily appropriate, considering the current discussion topic. Ok. I'm really done this time. (I can quit anytime...)

--The naming game 13:35, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Hmmm... Interesting point you raised there on the possible negative implications of using reality The naming game. That aspect honestly never crossed my mind though, now that you mention it.

However, I honestly don't think that people would think that way regarding that particular term (e.g. "confined reality") since the story goes on to explain the nature and context of a "confined reality" used for the story, and not it being a form of derisive language.

Let's see what everyone else has to say about this though. If people aren't happy with the final decision, they can still go ahead and save a copy of the file for themselves and edit away to their heart's desire.

I browsed through the other sections briefly and I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow. Preferably after I get tomorrow's exam out of the way... ^^;;

--Da~Mike 22:05, 3 May 2006 (GMT)

I'll give this until 2300 (UTC) so user you still got some time left to add your own comments, on this matter.

Onizuka-gto 02:20, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

I would think most people who come here who have at least a certain knowledge of japanese, and even if they don't, i'm quite sure if we put the kanji in a footnote, they'll find out what it means in translators, or we can provide the information.

This way we can prevent any unseen explanation the author might give to these terms.

However, I can see that most of us prefer to use a term that is easier to understand on plain sight. If that's the case, then I am supporting the decisions of the editors, because I find alot of them fitting to use

--199.88.96.65 08:30, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right. It seems like it been sorted.

I'll be putting up the terms now.

Which are "Avatar" & "Sealed Reality"

Notes will be need/or further clarification for them.

Thanks for all your input, this bikeshed topic is now officially closed.

\(^^)/

Onizuka-gto 14:25, 4 May 2006 (PDT)