Editing Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

== Translator's Notes ==
;<span id=new_religions>[[Zero_no_Tsukaima:Volume1_Story1_Chapter1#back_to_new_religions|&uarr;]]</span> New Religions
:The term "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinshukyo New Religion]" refers to any religious group in Japan that has its roots after the Meiji Restoration of 1868. This includes the Nichiren Buddhist organization [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soka_Gakkai Soka Gakkai], as well as the infamous [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo Aum Shinrikyo]. The latter probably explains Saito's concern.<br/><br/>
;<span id=hamburger>[[Zero_no_Tsukaima:Volume1_Story1_Chapter1#back_to_hamburger|&uarr;]]</span> Hamburger
:From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger#Japan <blockquote>In Japan, hamburgers can be served in a bun, called hambāgā (ハンバーガー), or just the the patties served without a bun, known as hambāgu (ハンバーグ) or "hamburg," short for "hamburg steak."</blockquote> The type mentioned by Saito was the version without the bun. (ハンバーグ)<br/><br/>
;<span id=12_jou>[[Zero_no_Tsukaima:Volume1_Story1_Chapter1#back_to_12_jou|&uarr;]]</span> 12 Tatami mats
:Rooms in Japan are measured jō (畳), which is the number of tatami mats required to cover the floor.  A tatami mat is 90 cm by 180 cm for an area of 1.62 m<sup>2</sup> each.  Twelve jō is slightly more than 19.5 m<sup>2</sup> or almost 210 square feet.

== Terminology to Standardize ==

Sushi-Y has made a forum post that pretty well obsoletes this section.  Check it out [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=294 here] instead.  -- this unsigned statement was made by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] on 2006-08-20 16:13:58.

One term not defined there, which shows up all over chapter 1 is 使い魔, currently translated as "Familiar Spirit."  I'm wondering if we should trim that down to just "familiar."  A related term is 春の使い魔召喚, which could translate to "Spring Familiar Summoning ceremony" or something similar.  Any thoughts? [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:05, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Another one is 幻獣, currently translated as "Illusion Beast."  When Cala-kun was on IRC last night, he seemed to imply this was a pretty generic term for a magical creature, not a specific reference to one specific type.  I could have misunderstood him though (I think he was talking about it in a different context than I see it now).  I'll also ask about these in the forums.  [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:39, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter One ==

=== Page number ===

I'll keep the page numbers for now, until we get the first half of the chapter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:31, 19 August 2006 (PDT)


Actually just keep the page number, the other groups will need it for the scans.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:12, 19 August 2006 (PDT)


Just remind everyone, after the last pages have been sent off to the other groups, please remove the page numbers.

We don't need those interuptions. (^^)/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:43, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

sorry, can some one stick this in the correct place please :\ it doesnt say the page numbers so im not quite sure where to put this:
chapter one: "That's what I've been telling you, over and over again, until I'm hoarse. Just give up. I'm giving up too. Why does my familiar a creature that isn't cool at all... I wanted to have something cool, like a dragon, a griffin, or a manticore. At least an eagle or an owl."
the sentence doesnt quite make sence and needs tweaking abit. once again sorry about putting this in the wrong place - Pit

=== Page 12 ===

'''The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the blue sky which seemed like it would fall out behind her.(1)''' She seemed to be around Saito's age and she '''wore(2)''' a white blouse with a gray pleated skirt under a black cape. She crouched down, looking at his face as if she was (2.5) disgusted.

Her face is... Cute. '''Her reddish-brown eyes danced, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin for their stage.(3)''' She seems like a foreigner. '''Well... She is(4)'''. But she is such a cute '''foreigner girl(5)''', like a doll. '''Or is she a half?(6)'''

Anyway her uniform, I wonder which school it belongs to? I have never seen it before. 



'''Saito seems to be lying with his back on the ground, he lifted his head up to look around.(7)'''

There were a lot of people with black capes '''looking at him as a stranger.(8)''' There, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he '''finds a huge castle with stone walls in the distance just like he has seen in those European trip photographs.(9)''' This was just like a fantasy. 


Okay. Everything I highlighted and numbered in bold are points I'd like to bring into attention.


'''(1)''' This sentence seems rather odd. How does the sky '''fall out behind a person'''?
Is the girl looking '''at''' Saito's face, '''staring at''' Saito's face or '''looking/staring''' into Saito's eyes?


* Yes, but if you have ever stared up at someone while laying outside when there is a clear blue sky, it's like looking down upon a blue ocean, and anyone you happen to look up, seems to be "falling" into it, because there are no point of reference between the person in your view and the blue background of the sky. 
The author is trying to describe this image.

perhaps "the blue sky seems to engulf the girl from behind, who was staring into Saito's eyes"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:21, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


:The sentence is awkward, but literally it's talking about the "blue sky which seemed like it would fall out" -- consider that one unit. So "The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the (blue sky which seemed like it would fall out) behind her."

:if you search for the phrase "抜けるような青空" on www.alc.co.jp, you'll see it referred to as "bottomless blue sky", "pure blue sky", "bright blue sky" -- it appears to be a set phrase, and you can probably either take that as-is, or try creating a phrase halfway between literal and poetic. And "falling out" can also be "falling free" or "escape" -- so if you think about it, the image makes sense as a figure of speech.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(2)''' Wore –> was wearing. If I’m not mistaken, the word “wore” is strictly reserved for anything described in past tense. The story so far seems to be told in present tense.


* the_naming_game has had a look at he raws, and spoken to cala-kun and has mentioned they are not so strict with tenses, so best bet is to put them into past tenses.
It's easier. 

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:17, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(2.5)''' "disgusted" may be a little strong.

呆れた -> 呆れる 【あきれる】 (v1,vi) to be amazed; to be shocked

Cala-kun didn't seem to register any special tone in the sentence that would push interpretation to "disgust" -- he seemed to agree with the dictionary definition of "amazement, shock"

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(3)''' I'm not too sure about the phrase "...red eyes danced..." but I think it may be lacking in description. It might sound better if written as "Her red eyes danced '''about'''".
The rest of the sentence: "...with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin '''for their stage'''" does not make any particular sense. What is "for their stage" supposed to represent? Her age?

:It seems to be "stage" as in "reddish-brown eyes danced, framed by strawberry blonde hair and flawless white skin" -- so that would be the more idiomatic interpretation. But if you think about it, "stage" isn't too far off the mark.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


: Ah. That clears things up.
My new change: 
"Her reddish-brown eyes dance, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin as their stage"
for their stage -> as their stage

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:05, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


: I thought it might be something close to; "Her reddish-brown eyes danced with her strawberry blond hair, and her flawless white skin was their stage."

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 08:30, 21 August 2006 (PDT)


: The naming game gave me the source text for this sentence awhile ago but I forgot to save it! In any case, referring to the naming game's comments above, to '''anthropomorphize''' things (I hate that word...), the eyes would be the dancers while the hair would be curtains and the skin would be like a backdrop (the scenery). Hence, the hair and the skin is "the stage" while the eyes are dancing around in this "stage".
Well, at least that's my interpretation of that interpretation...

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:56, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


: I actually just realized this, and was posting on how people should disregard my last interpretation, but you beat me to it... I came to the realization that my last interpretation doesn't really make as much sense (if any at all) as the previous interpretation. As for the previous interpretation, I agree with the point that The naming game brought up, in that it would be better if it were "dance/danced about."  I would phrase it as, "Her face is... Cute. Her reddish-brown eyes dance about, with her strawberry blond hair and flawless white skin set as their stage." It doesn't sound quite right, and can probably be improved upon. Also, should we have changed the tense of the sentence?

: [[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:06, 21 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(4)''' Is "Well... She is" the actual statement? I assume that "Saito" comes to this conclusion since she does not appear to be of the Japanese ethnic (presuming Saito is Japanese).


:ガイジンみたいだ。というかガイジンである。

:Gaijin appearing is. Well, actually... Gaijin IS.
::(as in, he's correcting himself. she doesn't just LOOK like a gaijin, she IS one. I'm not sure of the reason for a "da" in the first sentence, and "de aru" in the second -- both different ways of saying "is", the second being more formal -- not too sure about the exact nuance there, though.)
:She's kind of foreign looking. Come to think of it, she probably IS foreign.
::(extra interpretation added by me, because I can't think of a simpler way to provide those nuances of "looks like" vs "resembles", and getting the dynamic of his self-correction right. But I'm pretty sure it means something like that.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(5)''' foreigner girl -> foreign girl


'''(6)''' This sentence on its own is ambiguous since the noun that should follow the word "half" is absent. While this would seem clear enough to people well versed in Japanese "pop-culture" (and for people who think about the options of what the girl could be half of), I think that this should be clarified slightly. e.g. '''"Or is she half-Japanese?'''


:いや、ハーフだろうか？

:No, half perhaps?

:Just for reference.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(7)''' I moved the sentence down since I noticed a change of writing style (from the first person, to the third person). This however, may be the unusual manner of writing that the author chose to use.

:Talked with Cala-kun about it. Here's his translation: "It seems Saito somehow ended up on the ground facing up (at the sky)." I think that's pretty clear.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


: "Somehow Saito had come to be lying with his back on the ground"
had come to be lying -> found himself lying

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:06, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


:"During this time, Saito had been lying on the ground, face up, though he was unsure of how he had '''gotten''' there."

I must say that I disagree with the particular change that I highligheted in bold. While I am aware that it is an American term, I am completely unfamiliar with its usage (except that it is the American alternative for "got") thus, it seems wrong to me.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 11:20, 22 August 2006 (GMT)


'''(8)''' Under normal circumstances, the vast majority of people are strangers relative to oneself. In this case, assuming that it is common for people to wear black capes at that particular school (or that Saito looks like an alien compared to the others), a more appropriate sentence would be: "There were a lot of people with black capes looking at him as a '''though he were a''' stranger".

:黒いマントをつけて、自分を物珍しそうに見ている人間がたくさんいた。

:Actually didn't think to talk with Cala-kun about this. I don't completely understand the sentence's grammar, but it seems you can interpret this as more than "stranger" -- he's a novelty, and object of curiousity. Those make more sense in context. "looking at him curiously", "looking at him as they would a novelty."

:I also want to take the time to point out that "mantle" is the actual word (in katakana) used in the original. I thought of using "cloak", but "mantle" is really the best translation.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

::I changed my mind on this awhile ago, talk page not updated; might as well do so now.

::After finding out that English loan words taken into Japanese do not always retain their original senses, "mantle" was no longer as good a choice as "cloak"

::We have three words that enroached upon each other, through historical vagary, no doubt.
::*"マント" (manto) = "cloak",
::*"マントル" (mantoru) = "mantle" (geological term; crust, mantle, core),
::*"クローク" (kuro-ku) -> "クロークルーム" (kuro-ku ru-mu) = "cloakroom" -> "coatroom" (this seems to be the most common usage. In fact, a 'cloak clerk' is short for 'coatroom clerk', and 'cloak' is short for 'coatroom' -- katakana 'cloak' doesn't seem to be used often to actually refer to a cloak.)

::[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:13, 27 September 2006 (PDT)

'''(9)''' Unless Saito was specifically looking around, I don't think the word "finds" is appropriate. I would suggest words such as "sees", "saw", "spots", "spotted", "notices", "noticed" .etc

Again, due to the somewhat ambiguous transition between the past and present tense (and that I haven't looked at the Japanese script yet), I can't decide on an accurate substitute.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:51, 20 August 2006 (GMT)


*I Interpreted them as past tense, but then again the first half is talking from a first person perspective.

I guess it's best to check.

got to get cala-kun help, or naming_game

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


:豊かな草原が広がっている。遠くにヨーロッパの旅行写真で見たような、石造りの大きな城が見えた。

:A lush grassland extended endlessly. A huge castle with stone walls was visible in the distance, looking like something he'd seen in those European trip photographs.
::(I wasn't sure about what was confusing, so I just reworded to clarify what I think the meaning/sense is. Note how I changed the sentence structure back to a more literal translation.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


(This a comment on my additions to this entire section.)

I spent an inordinately long time fiddling with the Japanese of that first page back in the "Japanese language discussion" thread, and I cleared up pretty much all the uncertainties with pg 12 and some of pg 13 talking with Cala-kun last night, so I can actually clarify THESE parts. Most of this wisdom is second-hand Cala-kun stuff. I'll note the Cala-kun approved stuff, so you can tell the ones that are more certain.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 14 ===

"Mr. Colbert!"
'''The girl who has been called Louise shouted(1)'''. The wall of people divided, '''and there appeared a middle aged man.(2)'''

'''Saito thought it was funny. Because this man looked ridiculous.(3)'''
He '''had a big wooden cane(4)''' and was wearing a '''black robe that covered him.(5)'''
What kind of look is that? He seemed like a wizard, is he sane?

I got it, this place must be a place for cosplay.
'''But this atmosphere doesn't seem right for it.(6)'''

All of a sudden Saito was gripped with fear. What am I going to do if this was an religious 

group? It is possible.
They must have put me to sleep some how and brought me here while I was taking a walk in 

town.
That mirror must have been a trap. If not I have no explanation for this.

Stay quiet, '''until he knows what was going on(6)''', Saito thought to himself.

'''That girl Louise keeps on talking, saying "Let me try it again", or "please", and shaking''' 

'''her arms wildly.(7)'''

I felt sorry for her to be in this weird religious group, especially since she is so cute.

"What is it, Miss. Valiale?"

"Please! let me try the summoning one more time!"



I'll use this symbol '''->''' to indicate that I have or want to substitute something.

(1) -> "The girl called Louise shouted" (removed "has been")


(2) -> "and there, appeared a middle-aged man." (added a comma and a hypen)


(3) -> "Saito thought it was funny because this man looked ridiculous." (joined the two sentences)


(4) -> "sported a big wooden cane" (used the word "sported" to emphasise that the man looks ridiculous)


(5) Does the black robe cover him '''entirely''' or? Robes are either worn or donned. I don't think they "cover" people. Other ways to suggest how the man is wearing the robe would be: "the black robe was draped over him" or "the black robe hung from his shoulders".


(6) -> "But this doesn't seem to be the right atmosphere for it." (Mild grammatical change)


(7) -> "until he knows what is going on" (I don't believe people think to themselves in past tense...)


(8) -> "That girl Louise kept on saying "Let me try it again", or "please", whilst shaking her arms wildly." (IMHO, Louise was being described in the past tense, not the present tense.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 18:50, 20 August 2006 (GMT)


===Page 15===
I've done some rewriting to this page, but one passage still has me stumped:
 "You fix a future attribute in the familiar spirit which appeared by a summoning and then advance to a specialized course with it. You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony. Whether you like it or not, you don't have a choice but to have him as your familiar spirit." 

The first sentace completely baffles me.  Is the "fix a future attribute" supposed to mean something with respect to the different types of magic?  Would a reasonable rewriting be (though the terminology would still need to be corrected):
 "Your [magical aptitude] is determined by the familiar spirit you summon, so you'll be taking special advanced classes on it. ..."

[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 17:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


From my reading of the original sentence, as well as your interpretation, this is how I understand them. In your interpretation, it seems that the familiar determines the mage's [magical aptitude]. Thus, the familiar affects the mage. However, in the original sentence, it seems to say that the mage imparts an attribute/ability to the familiar. Meaning, the mage affects the familiar and gives him ("fixes") an attribute to it. I'm not certain of what they mean by attribute, as it could either refer to an ability or it could very well refer to the different elements of magic. I think it would probably be best to just leave "attribute" as "attribute" and leave it a little vague.

[[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:32, 21 August 2006 (PDT)


===Page 16===
(1) I have no idea. -> I don't understand.

(2) It might be possible to find a chance quickly, and run away. -> It might be possible for me to find a chance and quickly run away.

(3) An abduction! I was being abducted! -> An abduction! I have been abducted!

(4) "You are kidding me..." -> "You have got to be joking..."

(5) Louise drooped her shoulders, disappointed. -> Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:46, 20 August 2006 (GMT)


This is very, very minor, but I think it sounds better as "Louise's shoulders drooped in disappointment."

[[User:Nandeyanen|Nandeyanen]] 10:20, 21 August 2006 (PDT)


===Page 17===

(1) "Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling to her." -> "...it was troubling her."

(2) "Hey," -> "Hey."

(3) "It usually never happens, a thing like this, done by a noble." -> "It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:08, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

お前らはただの変態コスプレ新興宗教野郎じゃないかよ。
* omae-ra wa tada no hentai cosplay shinkyou-shuukyou yarou janai ka yo.
* you(plural) only abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks aren't?
* Aren't you just a bunch of abnormal cosplaying new-religion freaks?

Used "freaks" for "yarou" ... example sentences give it the meaning of anything from "guy" to any bad name you can think of. Some of those example sentences made me question the integrity of that database...

Still, that long string of name-calling was kinda fun to decipher, especially "hentai", which I, unfortunately, used the tamer interpretation for. So that's what I'm thinking of, for the new version of that sentence.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 02:47, 23 August 2006 (PDT)


The original translation that was provided did connote the original meaning (literally) but I think your change is better, except for how you chose to interpret 変態 (hentai) I think. The individual kanji constitutes of (unusual, change, strange) + (condition, figure, appearance, attitude) and based on what little I know about the usage of the word and its implications, I would think that the word "abnormal" is perhaps too gentle a description.
I would instead suggest using harsher words such as: aberrant, twisted or even queer (this word has numerous colloquial definitions though).
However, by interpreting 野郎 (yarou) as freaks, you've effectively covered both words at once. The supposed definition of "yarou" that I've seen in several dictionaries is "rascal" yet the manner by which this word is used, it would probably be more appropriate to interpret it as an obscene or blasphemous word.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 12:48, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

(I already discussed this with Mike on MSN, so I may be repeating some points as far as he's concerned.)

I agree that the original translation is mostly correct, but it does omit one point of tone, which is:
:唯(P); 只(P) 【ただ】 (adj-pn,adv,conj) (1) sole; only; mere; usual; common; (2) free of charge; (P)
In context, the current:
:A noble? How stupid. Give me a break, a noble?
:You are a warped bunch, a cosplaying new religious group.
with the addition of just, and some retranslation:
:A noble? How stupid. What nobles?
:Aren't you just a bunch of twisted cosplaying new-religion freaks?

(Mike suggested the more extreme interpretation for "hentai")

That kind of wording makes the motivation for his disbelief a little bit more clear. That is, it's not that he doesn't believe nobles exist, that only warped people would suggest such. It's that he can't believe that THIS twisted group could possibly be nobles.

One more difference is just a wording subtlety "new religious group" -- in other words, a religious group that is new, but may follow an old religion. Or it could be (wrongly, to my mind, but I've seen it used that way) a group that follows a new religion.

The Japanese shows that it's the latter that is meant -- a group that follows a new religion. Thus the rephrase takes care of the ambiguity.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:36, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

*貴族？　アホか。何が貴族だ。お前らは...
*kizoku? aho ka. nani ga kizoku da. omae-ra wa ...
*Noble? Are you an idiot? What nobles are there? You (plural) ...

This is just a quick add to justify my change from "Give me a break, a noble?" to "What nobles?" -- also note that nouns in Japanese, by default, have no number. You have to explicitly add either singular or plural, or infer it from context. I chose plural for the second, as he immediately uses that sentence to contrast with a group.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:46, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 18 ===

(1) "Just be still." -> "Just stay still."
 
(2) "Uh! I told you to be still!" -> "Uh! I told you to stay still!"

(3) Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand. -> Louise gruffly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

(4) The touch of soft lips confused Saito more. -> The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:57, 20 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 20 ===

(1) "illusion beast", IRC log explains:
:<Cala-kun> "Illusion beast"... >.>
:<Cala-kun> And "lunes".
:<BlckKnght> ah, that was the engrish I spotted earlier
:<Cala-kun> The "illusion beast" I can understand...
:<Cala-kun> And I guess Oni was either mistaken with my share of the chapter, or just hasn't got the part from the other group yet.
:<the_naming_game> if I had to guess what an illusion beast was, I'd say some kind of spirit monster
:<the_naming_game> er ... how close am I? I haven't even read that part of the chapter.
:<Cala-kun> I put it as "magical beast".
:<Cala-kun> Since there are dragons and reference to such creatrues.
:<Cala-kun> *creatures

(2) "Don't make a fool out of me!"
*バカにしないで。
*baka ni shinaide.
*fool towards do-not(te-form at end, request with "kudasai" dropped)
*not do towards fool

Despite the literal correctness of "don't make a fool out of me!", the use of "ni" with "suru" (to do) is in fact, a [http://guidetojapanese.org/surunaru.html#part2 figure of speech]. In short, it means to "decide on" --
*Don't decide on me as a fool.

Besides, it just doesn't make sense in context. Making a fool out of someone means making them look foolish. Maybe by asking them a question they can't answer, by making them do something stupid, by making them look stupid. Merely insulting them isn't enough.

In context, I felt they were just insulting her. To actually make a fool out of her, they would have to get her to try, and fail to do something. Perhaps in Japanese, that phrase doesn't need those extra requirements in order to be apt, but in English, it does.

Also, I can't imagine anyone saying "don't make a fool out of me!" -- that would be admitting they were made to look like a fool. (Even if someone did say that, I would suspect an incorrect usage.) The following, are more easily imaginable:
:"Don't make me out to be a fool!"
:"Don't take me for a fool!"
:"Don't think of me like a fool!"

Those three were my suggestions for replacement. I went with the third, because, while it's not the shortest, "Don't take me for a fool!" is a bit too "low class" for Louise to say. And "Don't make me out to be a fool!" is a bit more awkward sounding.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 18:17, 25 August 2006 (PDT)


(3) "that is how you act?" -> "this is how you act?"

Those two phrases, taken alone, mean different things to me.
*"That is how you act?" --> "That is the way you usually act?"
*"This is how you act?" --> "This is the way you're going to act?"
The second phrase is the one that fits best in its context.

(4) "If he was a high-powered illusion beast, she would never have made a contract." -> "... she could never have ..."
*「そいつが高位の幻獣だったら、「契約」なんかできないって」
*that person, {if it was a high-powered magical beast}, 'keiyaku' nanka dekinai tte
*that person, {if it was a high-powered magical beast}, {contract or something} unable {I hear, I understand, I'm saying/said -- context dependent. I'd go with "I'm saying"}

Yeah, I sure typed a lot just to change "would" to "could" -- and then I thought to check the original translation, and yes, it was "could." I have to give the original translator some credit. Despite doing a literal and sometimes confusing translation, as well as missing figures of speech, I found nothing that was dead wrong.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:00, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

:I ended up changing it to "wouldn't have been able to make a contract." -- "could" does sound a little strange in context, and that's probably why someone changed it to "would" in the first place.
:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:12, 25 August 2006 (PDT)


(5) "A few students laughed at the frequently said comments." -> "A few students laughed as they made those comments."
Original:
:(A) Few students laughed as they made those comments.
Current:
:A few students laughed at the frequently said comments.
Japanese:
:何人かの生徒が、笑いながら言った。
:some students laughed while said.
(Just to affirm accuracy of original translation)

So I'm changing it back to that original phrase. Note that there's that problem of dialogue attribution in Japanese again -- it usually points to the dialogue preceding. The original sentence seems to do a decent job of handling that, though, so I've let it be.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:29, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 21 ===

(1) "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected, to stop them."  - > "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them." 

(2) " but I can't just lay around quietly -> "but I can't just lie around quietly"

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


(3) "Montmorency the Fragrance" -> "Montmorency the Perfume" 

The change being, conforming to the guidelines, however, the guideline has yet to be agreed upon.

Personally I find Fragrance a more elegant and sophisicated description compared to "Perfume", which conjures an image of artificial pretense. While Fragrance gives the impression of natural beauty and inane ability.


[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:22, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 22 ===
(1) "The feeling of heat lasted only for a second." -> "The hot sensation..."

(2) "The middle-aged cosplaying man who is called Colbert came to the kneeing Saito, and checked the back of his left hand." -> "...man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito and checked the back of his left hand."

(3) "It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern he had never seen before." -> "...in a pattern I have never seen before."

(4) "...he really lost it." -> "Saito really lost it." (to minimise confusion)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)



(1) "The middle-aged cosplaying wizard turned around then floated in the air." -> "...and then rose gently into the air." ('floated in the air' implies he's already there)

(2) "Saito's jaw dropped as he stared at him." -> "Saito's jaw dropped in shock." (gets to the point)

--[[User:CrowKenobi|CrowKenobi]] 19:35, 22 August 2006 (PDT)


*ヘビがのたくっているような、見たことのない模様である。
*hepi ga notakutte iru you na, mita koto no nai mo-you de aru.
*{snake wriggling}-manner-like, {<span>{seen thing}-characteristic/essence</span>}-not pattern is.
*like a wriggling-snake, an unfamiliar pattern.

(I'm not 100% sure about the function of the comma. I have the feeling that it's only in the Japanese so that the two adjectives -- and they're nothing but complex adjectives, really -- can be more easily read/heard.)

The "past-tense-verb koto (thing/event)" construction is [http://guidetojapanese.org/genericnoun.html#part2 quite common] in Japanese.
:<< Using the past tense of the verb with 「こと」, you can talk about whether an event has ever taken place. This is essentially the only way you can say "have done" in Japanese so this is a very useful expression. You need to use this grammar any time you want to talk about whether someone has ever done something. >>

But in English, explicitly saying "I've never seen this before" carries extra emphasis, because we usually use special case, simpler ways of saying that. Seeing being practically synonymous with knowing, recognizing, etc. Thus, I tried to use one of those simpler ways:
:''Is this a word? It looks like a wriggling snake in some strange pattern.''
:(Mike's responsible for the death of the "snake, in" comma. Blame him.)

Even though I consider it to be more reminiscent of someone looking through binoculars at something, it's still something I'd actually imagine someone American would say. Yes, that's my language-centrism again...

And to an extent, he really IS looking at it from a distance, remotely, barely understanding what's going on. In any case, this whole post was a long way of saying that I wanted the sentence to sound more like something someone would say on the spur of the moment -- and I realize that's very subjective -- while at the same time not changing the meaning unduly.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:04, 25 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 23 ===

(1) "Everyone who was floating flew towards that stone wall castle quietly." -> "Everyone who was floating flew towards the stone-walled castle quietly."

(2) "The only ones left behind were the girl named Louise and Saito." -> "The only ones left behind was the girl named Louise and Saito."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)


=== Page 24 ===

(1) "Of course they do, what would we do if mages couldn't fly?" -> "Of course they flew. What would we do if mages couldn't fly?"

(2) "This is Tristein! And this is the well known Tristein Magic School!" -> "This is Tristein! And this is the renowned Tristein Magic School!"

(renown = The quality of being widely honoured and acclaimed; fame.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)


=== Page 25 ===

才人は笑いながら言った。しかし、ルイズは笑わない。

Saito laughed while said. However, Louise laughed-not.

:(just a quick literal translation to justify an edit revert.)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:34, 21 August 2006 (PDT)


=== Page 26 ===

<cite>
Maijis those flew away from here and those fantasy word connect.
</cite>

Maijis?

Mages perhaps?

(2) "Tonight's dinner is hamburger." -> "Tonight's dinner is hamburgers."

I personally dislike this sentence. I changed what little I could to make it sound better.
While I am aware that "hamburger" is how Japanese people literally refer to beef patties, I think it should either be edited to flow well in English or a translation note be added for this.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 14:22, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 27 ===
(1) "... A proud descendant of a true noble lineage, ..."

* 由緒正しい旧い家柄を誇る貴族のわたしが
* {<span>{right-history'ed old-pedigree/parentage}</span> have-pride-in}-noble-type me
* A proud descendant of an honorable lineage of nobles, ...
*: ("me" indicated from rest of sentence)

(Justification follows)

I was trying to fix several ambiguities:
* "a lineage composed of true things." vs "a lineage that is truly what it seems to be." 
* "noble lineage" vs "lineage composed of nobles"

By rudimentary parsing, it appears the answers would be:
* "a lineage that is truly what it seems to be."
* "lineage that is truly one of nobles" -- the "true nobles" part would probably have been encompassed indirectly by the "proud" reference.

Interpretation notes:
* 正しい 【ただしい】 (adj) right; just; correct; righteous; honest; truthful; proper; straightforward; perfect; (P); 
*: So that means that "true" is not the only interpretation of that word. I changed it to "honorable" in order to reduce the ambiguity -- and "honorable" does seem to fit the definition. Any extra connotations don't detract from the sentence; in fact, I tend to think they add to it.
* "由緒正しい家柄" is a long compound that can be boiled down to "pedigreed" according to alc.co.jp --
*:so the addition of an extra "old" prefix to one of the words most likely only makes it more grand, while changing none of the meaning. I would probably split the difference, like in the original translation --
and so we're left with what I had for the translated line at the start. Thus that will be my change.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 07:10, 28 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 31 ===
(1) "From the window, he could see the grass plains where he'd rolled around."
*窓がらは、夜空のほかに先ほど才人が寝転がっていた草原が見えた。
(the word "寝転" is currently up for discussion.)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 05:23, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 33 ===
(1) Passage starting with "On the tabletop was a lamp ..."
:　才人がそう言うと、ルイズはせつなそうにテーブルに肘をついた。
:　テーブルの上には、アールデコ調のカバーがついたランプが置いてある。ランプの中に
:淡い光が揺れて、部屋をぼんやりと照らしている。電気はないようだ。
:　まったく、手が込んでいるつくりじゃないか。昔家旅で旅行に行った、異人館の中のよ
:うだ。
:　つくり？
:　そうか。これは……。
(this general passage seems under discussion)

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 19:37, 27 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 35 ===

(1) "Why did I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!" -> Why do I have to be stuck with a familiar like you?!"

did -> do ("did" would be used if Lousie was looking back at the past... not much of a past with this guy so far)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 36 ===

(1) unconcerned -> indifferent -> dispassionate (I think her face simply isn't showing any emotion, not that she doesn't care)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(2) "...and the computer came to life with a 'whirr.'" -> "...and the computer whirred to life."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:29, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 37 ===

(1) "Louise stuck out her lips in a pout." -> "Louise pouted." (removed redundant words)

(2) "Clutching at her own long hair, Louise just shook her head." -> "Clutching her long hair, Louise just shook her head."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 20:32, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

(3) "Worry was etched on Louise's face as she answered Saito." -> "Louise's face was etched with anxiety as she answered Saito." -> 

(Worry didn't seem that appropriate. The closest match to worry was anxiety but that doesn't seem to be the manner by which Louise responded. It seems more as though she's either uneasy or uncomfortable because she doesn't know how to undo what she did."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)


=== Page 38 ===

(1) "Normally only things like animals or magical beasts are summoned." -> "Normally, only animals or magical beasts are summoned."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)


=== Page 39 ===

(1) "...and not too tall with a height of 155cm." (that's really short actually... I didn't change this since this came from a Japanese book aimed at Japanese people...)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)


=== Page 40 ===

(1) "But mostly they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not actually do anything relevant." -> "But mostly, they would just sit on their master's shoulder and not do anything particularly relevant."

(2) "But it seems that doesn't seem to work with you." -> "But it seems that doesn't work with you." (I basically rolled back the change)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:31, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

=== Page 41 ===

(1) "Yeah yeah." -> "Yes yes." (This is an issue to do with Louise's manner of speech, which I have raised in the "Unified Guidelines"... and concluded that it wasn't really necessary...)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

(2) "The task of protecting them from all and any enemies is a duty of the highest priority! But that might be a little bit problematic for you..." -> "The task of protecting them from each and every enemy is a duty of supreme priority! But that might be a little precarious for you..."

(The word precarious covers the definition of problematic as well as indicates that it would be dangerous.)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:33, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

:This is in regard to Da~Mike's (2)

:The "precarious" part seems more about Louise being pissed that her familiar is so helpless and uncool, not on her being worried about her familiar being in danger because he might not be up to the task. Yeah, up to this point, she's a typical princess type, except for the bad magic thing, which by itself, propels her quite a few steps up the ladder of moe.

:I went ahead and changed it back to what was there before, on the reasoning that while part of that bit of dialogue is probably Louise repeating something almost verbatim that she's been lectured on, that she would still be more likely to render it in "high class", or "lofty and eloquent" American speech. I feel the key words she repeats verbatim are "task", "protecting", "enemies", "duty", "priority" -- any exact speech mannerisms would most likely have been lost, since I'm imagining she only heard this type of thing once or twice as they got to the part of class pertaining to familiars.

:--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 06:52, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 42 ===

(1) "And then she brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse." -> "She then brought her hand up to the top button of her blouse."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)


=== Page 43 ===

(1) "Saito thought, face heating up" -> "Saito thought as his face began to flush"

(2) "Kuyashii" 悔しい　-> rueful -> disgruntled
"kuyashii" is more accurately translated as vexed/dissapointed or chagrined. I tried to find a word that seemed to match the tone of Louise's speech and the mood a typical "boy" might be in after being rejected (presumably from asking a girl out).

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)

IRC log explains:
:<the_naming_game> Ah, I see what you mean about "rueful" and kuyashii, Cala-kun
:<Cala-kun> But the thing was, I didn't think it was quite a situation of regret or frustration.
:<the_naming_game> yeah, the "rejected boy" image clinches it pretty closely, I think.
:<Cala-kun> It seemed more she was chiding him gently.
:<the_naming_game> I'm of two minds
:<the_naming_game> first, she's still feeling defeated over her summoning failure.
:<the_naming_game> and second, something to do with him jumping up, or not being happy as her familiar ... something to do with Saito, right then and there.
:<the_naming_game> Ah, definitely the second now that I read again.
:<the_naming_game> hm. hurt, miffed, wounded, aggrieved (thesaurus)
:<the_naming_game> I'm leaning towards "hurt"
:<Cala-kun> That works.
(That was the extent of the "kuyashii" conversation, so I'm reasonably certain he didn't just say that to shut me up! He's pretty patient, in any case.)

So from what I gather, Cala-kun wanted the mood of "rueful" -- being emotionally brought down to the point where you're reflective -- but the meaning of "disappointed + vexed". "Hurt" is a reasonable approximation.

"Disgruntled" will always bring to mind (In America, at least.) images of postal workers going postal, hence, not the best choice. I believe the "typical" Japanese boy is supposed to be rather stricken if he gets rejected. See Kashimashi, or any number of works I'm not familiar with...

In any case, the tone used afterwards would be chiding, since lashing out is Louise's way of responding to any kind of hurt or insult. However it would start off slow, until she managed to shrug off her initial emotion down, and then it would gather steam.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 08:13, 26 August 2006 (PDT)

That’s a fine change as far as I can tell. While I still am unsure about using "hurt" as the word to describe how Louise's feelings in that scene, the extra detail following it ("like a boy who got rejected") helps clarify her emotions.
I guess there are a couple of Japanese words to describe certain emotions quite specifically, which simply do not translate very well in to English...

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 15:44, 27 August 2006 (GMT)
@@ Line 660: / Line 660: @@
 --[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 13:26, 22 August 2006 (GMT)
-* 背はそんなに高くない。百五十五センチといったところだろうか。
-* sei sonna ni takakunai. hyaku go juu go centi to itta tokoro darou ka.
-* height {that towards, that way} tall-not. 155cm {you might say} place for sure?
-* She's not all that tall. Around 155cm, I'd say?
-(I took some liberties with that final translation, but only in the nuances. The underlying ideas are pretty clear.)
-So it's the other use of "not too tall" not as in "too tall, too short, just right" -- but as in "not very tall" or as we say in America to describe someone who's slow on the uptake "not too swift."
-I will change it to something a little more clear, by breaking the height part out into its own sentence, and removing the confusing use of "too", like so:
-:If you looked closely, she was actually quite cute. Slender and well-proportioned legs, thin ankles. Not very tall, at around 155cm. Her eyes were like a curious kitten's ...
-If you noticed, the original text had the guessing of her height as a question. I'm not certain whether or not that marks it as Saito's internal speech or not. I've left that alone for now.
---[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 07:27, 26 August 2006 (PDT)
 === Page 40 ===