Editing Talk:Meeting:March302014

<pre>

<+Lord-Simon> yes

<Misogi> Yes.

<cloudii> yes

<Kira0802> Yea

<rock96> Yes.

<&DarkoNeko> agreed

<krytyk> y

<Lery> yes

<hayashi> yes

</pre>

<pre>

<Kira0802> Yea

<Cthaeh> vote yes

<rock96> yes

<Lery> yes

<hayashi> mondai nai

<krytyk> y

<&DarkoNeko> vote y

<Vallor> yes

<victorrama> Yea

<+Lord-Simon> yes, even if I'm sceptical

</pre>

== project leading and supervisions ==

Renaming of some of the roles for a project, for clarity

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"Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (usually one of the translators or editors. Does not need to be a member of a particular power user group)"

"Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above)"

</pre>

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<cloudii> Yes

<krytyk> yes

<Kira0802> Yea

<Vallor> Yeah

<Misogi> Yes (although I may not count)

<Lery> yes

<Cthaeh> yes, vote

<&DarkoNeko> i'd have preferred "translation project manager" for clarity, but I'll take that

<rock96> 'K, I think

</pre>

Vote : approved

== Project Manager ==

"If a project manager knows they'll be away for a while, they should designate a subtitute to take all decisions in their absence"

Vote : all agreed.

----

"In case of unannounced inactivity or management issues, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to mediate and/or appoint a new Project Manager amongst the active project members"

Vote : approved.

----

"The first Project Manager is appointed by the Supervisor during ATP procedure."

Vote : approved.

==Complete Log of the Meeting==

{| class="wikitable collapsible collapsed"

! Complete Log of the Noon Session (w/o TLG)

|-

|

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<nowiki>

[...]

15:13 <&DarkoNeko> so, what part of http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:March302014 culd we do without him ?

15:13 < Kira0802> WHAT IF GOD WAS ONE OF US

15:13 < cloudii> ping said that he'd be late on fb

15:13 < Vallor> xD

15:13 < hayashi> but it's 9pm+ in sg

15:13 < Lord-Simon> kira.. calm down

15:13 < hayashi> he should be home by now

15:13 < Kira0802> JUST A SLOB LIKE ONE OF US

15:13 < Lery> Any way to magnify text using Mibbit ?

15:13 <&DarkoNeko> we could strart with cloudii's "Modify, simplify and remove outdated rules from the guidelines: "

15:13 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, like any other webpage, ctrl+ +

15:14 < Lord-Simon> do you use chrome ?

15:14 < Misogi> Yep, it requires everyone's help.

15:14 < hayashi> also

15:14 < hayashi> where is KH

15:14 < Vallor> Maybe Big Brother is watching us...

15:14 < hayashi> oh wait

15:14 < hayashi> he's back in camp

15:14 < hayashi> XD

15:14 < victorrama> Kira

15:14 < cloudii> I'm in favor of DarkoNeko's suggestion to get started anyways xD

15:14 <&DarkoNeko> could someone summarize https://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8726 it's too long didn't read :D

15:14 < Lery> @DarkoNeko, yeah, but the interface will then be magnified as well

15:14 < victorrama> He'd slap me

15:14 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, aye

15:14 < Kira0802> wtf darko

15:14 < cloudii> I can talk it through

15:14 <&DarkoNeko> Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules. <- YES.

15:14 < Lord-Simon> 15 more minutes and then start ?

15:14 < Kira0802> it's like 3 pages long

15:15 <&DarkoNeko> actually, why the fuck are they on the forum

15:15 < Kira0802> because forums = life

15:15 < hayashi> that's one of the points

15:15 < cloudii> 1). Remove the One Week deadline from the project creation rules

15:15 < hayashi> the wiki and the forums are not meshing

15:15 < cloudii> 2). Change the wording of the {{Warning:ATP}}

15:15 < Lery> Well, actually we could talk about Cloud's points.

15:15 < hayashi> something needs to be done about that

15:15 <&DarkoNeko> meshing ?

15:15 < Kira0802> >Part 1: Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.

15:15 < Kira0802> >Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules.

15:15 < Kira0802> >Part 3: Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.

15:15 <&DarkoNeko> hey, let cloud explain lol

15:15 < Lord-Simon> *sigh*

15:15 <&DarkoNeko> don't spam on his parade

15:15 < hayashi> the forums is supposed to function in tandem with the wiki

15:15 < Lord-Simon> Stop here

15:16 < hayashi> at least that's the way I see it

15:16 < Lord-Simon> Choose a person to explain

15:16 < Lord-Simon> wait for explanation

15:16 < hayashi> but currently it's not

15:16 < cloudii> Um, can someone chair the meeting?

15:16 < Lord-Simon> get a mediator

15:16 < Kira0802> TLG

15:16 < Lord-Simon> and do the stuff

15:16 <&DarkoNeko> what does a chair do ?

15:16 < Lord-Simon> I can

15:16 < hayashi> can we just get cloudi to explain everything

15:16 < cloudii> sure, Simon can chair

15:16 <&DarkoNeko> yes, let's do that

15:16 < victorrama> simon be mediator

15:16 < Misogi> Well, I can handle a part of the task too.

15:16 * Kira0802 hugs Cloudii

15:16 < stellarroze> i vote for simon!

15:16 <&DarkoNeko> i can ban the unrelies XD

15:16 * stellarroze hugs cloudii

15:16 <&DarkoNeko> unrulies*

15:17 < victorrama> Don't Kill me

15:17 * Kira0802 hugs stella

15:17 < krytyk> chat discipline~

15:17 < cloudii> Okays, so Part 1 :Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.

15:17 * stellarroze hugs victorrama

15:17 <&DarkoNeko> shh

15:17 < hayashi> STOP HUGGING

15:17 < cloudii> The first rule that comes to mind that is outdated

15:17 < Lery> Uh, I think that it's only DarkoNeko who has the rights to moderate the channel currently.

15:17 < cloudii> is the one week requirement to complete a new chapter

15:17 < Kira0802> we can delete that

15:17 < cloudii> for a new project

15:17 < Misogi> Agreed.

15:17 < cloudii> just delete that rule

15:17 < Lery> Agreed

15:17 < Lord-Simon> People

15:17 < victorrama> ^

15:17 < cloudii> Motion to agree?

15:17 < Lord-Simon> Shut up

15:17 <&DarkoNeko> why is that rule a problem ?

15:17 < stellarroze> one month?

15:17 < cloudii> Okay

15:17 < Lord-Simon> Thank you

15:18 < cloudii> so, it's a problem

15:18 < Lord-Simon> Cloidii, once agian please

15:18 < Kira0802> No, if therE's not enough, we can simply not approve

15:18 < cloudii> because most projects don't even follow that guideline

15:18 < Kira0802> instead of going all the way to delete it

15:18 < cloudii> in the first place

15:18 < Lery> Well, it's stressing the translators who would like to begin...

15:18 < stellarroze> hmmm

15:18 < cloudii> theoretically

15:18 < stellarroze> fair enough

15:18 < cloudii> any project

15:18 < victorrama> Listen to simon. Please stay wuite ,:now

15:18 < cloudii> tagged with ATP, is supposed to be deleted within a week

15:18 < cloudii> unless the translator gets permission from a supervisor

15:18 < cloudii> to get it extended

15:19 <&DarkoNeko> okay, so a little pause

15:19 < krytyk> a translator can first translate a chapter, and then start a project, if he is determined he will do that. I believe that rule was made to avoid people pick up new project, and then go MIA

15:19 <&DarkoNeko> choice 1) keep it 2) extend it to a month 3) remove it

15:19 < Kira0802> 3.

15:19 < Vallor> 2/3

15:19 < stellarroze> 2.

15:19 < krytyk> 1

15:19 < Misogi> 3

15:19 < Lery> 3

15:19 < cloudii> 3

15:19 < Vallor> I'd prefer the third though

15:19 < hayashi> 2

15:19 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, so, having a chapter (or a prologue) ready before the project is actually created, then

15:20 < cloudii> Can I bring up a point?

15:20 < Lord-Simon> 3

15:20 < Kira0802> go ahead

15:20 <&DarkoNeko> sure

15:20 < Lord-Simon> Let me get some paper

15:20 < cloudii> Theoretically, we want all of our project startup guidelines

15:20 < cloudii> to include rules governing teaser creation

15:20 <&DarkoNeko> I'll go create a summary of the discussion on http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Talk:Meeting:March302014&action=edit&redlink=1

15:20 < Vallor> But it is a problem fo alternative langages

15:20 < krytyk> moreover, considering that rule, I want to pick up another facet of it, the teasers

15:20 < krytyk> it is really ambigious considering teaser projects

15:20 < cloudii> exactly

15:21 < Kira0802> Teasers do not have any rule concerning them, and it'd ok.

15:21 < cloudii> That is point 2 on my page

15:21 < Misogi> Coudii mentionned that point later in the post.

15:21 -!- DefaultMelody [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

15:21 < Misogi> Cloudii*

15:21 < krytyk> yeah, I mean those issues are connected

15:21 < cloudii> There are no rules whatsoever governing the creation of teasers

15:21 < krytyk> so if you discuss one, you should consider the other at the same time.

15:21 < cloudii> sure

15:21 < cloudii> so, here's the issue with the teasers

15:21 < Misogi> Teaser = A translator only does some chapters, nothing more.

15:22 < cloudii> since there are no rules governing the uploading up them

15:22 < cloudii> and also the fact that some people don't consider teasers to be "starting a new project"

15:22 < cloudii> whereas other people do

15:22 < hayashi> i have a question

15:22 < hayashi> can anyone create a teaser

15:22 < cloudii> go ahead

15:22 < cloudii> yes

15:22 < Kira0802> yes

15:22 < Lord-Simon> yes

15:22 < hayashi> ah ok

15:23 <&DarkoNeko> that may be a problem

15:23 < hayashi> should we restrict it to translators only?

15:23 < Kira0802> it's not

15:23 < stellarroze> even a machine translator?

15:23 <&DarkoNeko> teasers seems to be quite the "bastardised" status

15:23 < Lord-Simon> I would vote for no.

15:23 < krytyk> to create a teaser you need a correctly translated part

15:23 < Kira0802> well, a machine TL can touch a teaser as much as a normal translation

15:23 < krytyk> so not just anyone can do it

15:23 < hayashi> like a series that a translator wants to do but has no time so it's just something he's throwing out there?

15:23 < Misogi> ^

15:23 -!- arczyx [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki

15:23 < Kira0802> @Hayashi, yeah, something like that

15:23 < cloudii> Well, it's just my observation that the usage of the "teaser tag" no longer represents what we originally intended for it

15:23 < Lord-Simon> One thing about this whole thing.

15:24 <&DarkoNeko> it probably shoiuld be only a translator, but we would keep away potential new translators if only existing ones can do that

15:24 < krytyk> that might be what some people want to do, but it should be treated as something that "teases" and possibly catches some other translators interest

15:24 < cloudii> All new projects on the wiki are tagged with some sort of teaser tag

15:24 < cloudii> in the English projects

15:24 < cloudii> On the other hand, ATP tag is neglected

15:24 < cloudii> that's the main issue here

15:24 < Misogi> Exception of Alt. Languages.

15:24 < Lord-Simon> One person states the problem and explains it. We wait till he/she is done. Discuss it. And at the end we vote.

15:24 < Lery> What was it intended to be at first?

15:24 < cloudii> Imo, all brand new translations on the wiki, should be tagged with ATP

15:25 < cloudii> Oni's original rules didn't not account for the existence of teasers

15:25 <&DarkoNeko> "ATP" ?

15:25 < hayashi> the initial discussion was about the existence of the 1 week deadline

15:25 < cloudii> "Pending Project Tag"

15:25 < Kira0802> I disagree for that

15:25 < cloudii> http://i.imgur.com/JC6zsLM.png

15:25 < hayashi> so far we seem to be mostly in favour of abolishing it/extending it to a month

15:25 < hayashi> with majority for abolishing it totally

15:25 < Kira0802> Why should something that's not intended to be made into a project have a tag on it?

15:25 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, ... why does that only apply to "alternative lanugages" ?

15:26 < cloudii> No, it's supposed to apply to all languages

15:26 < cloudii> Oni treats it that way

15:26 <&DarkoNeko> ok

15:26 < cloudii> at the very least

15:26 < krytyk> the problem is with existence of ATP imho

15:26 < cloudii> the problem is, is that ATP is not being used

15:26 < cloudii> for english projects

15:26 <&DarkoNeko> bit of pause again : should we use temporary +M with voicing of the speaker during explanation time ?

15:26 < Kira0802> yes

15:26 < krytyk> as teasers are there, people (incl me) prefer to make a teaser, and once it grows to normal volume size convert it to full project

15:26 < stellarroze> +M?

15:26 < Kira0802> don't forget to voice cloudii

15:26 < krytyk> so abolish ATP or teasers

15:26 < Lord-Simon> yes

15:26 < Lord-Simon> I'd like that to do

15:26 <&DarkoNeko> +m, only voice ad above may talk, it's so only the speaker , well, speak, during that time

15:27 <&DarkoNeko> ok, we'll do that starting the next point then

15:27 < cloudii> Observation: Nowadays, all of our new projects go through the Teaser Project pathway. Regardless of whether a new project really should be classified as a teaser, virtually all translators tag their new project pages with the Teaser tag.

15:27 < cloudii> Translators tag the teaser tag regardless of their intent to continue, or not to continue the project

15:27 < cloudii> that's just an observation

15:27 < krytyk> What about abolishing ATP, and making some of its rules cover the teasers

15:28 < Kira0802> True, but why should all projects have ATP?

15:28 < Kira0802> all teasers*

15:28 <&DarkoNeko> should we make "teaser" an intermediary part of creating a project, then ?

15:28 < krytyk> one week to present a prologue

15:28 < krytyk> as a "teaser"

15:28 < krytyk> teasers are very short so a month is not needed

15:28 < Vallor> teasers and new projects are not the same thing...

15:28 < Kira0802> I say you have the content before making the page for a teaser

15:28 < krytyk> teasers often turn into full project, more often than ATP turn into new projects

15:28 < cloudii> krytyk, the one week thing, is that do you really plan to delete a page that has less than prologue?

15:28 < Kira0802> you must have*

15:29 < Lord-Simon> But the teaser and a new project are treated as one

15:29 < cloudii> If someone uploads 25%, do we really want to delete the page?

15:29 < cloudii> just because it fails to fulfil the 1 week requirement?

15:29 < Lord-Simon> That what it might look to the person out there.

15:29 < hayashi> if I may interrupt

15:29 < cloudii> because that's what the rule implies

15:29 < krytyk> 25%, is 4 lines of text very often

15:29 < Lord-Simon> Go on, hayashi.

15:29 < Kira0802> ehhh

15:29 -!- mode/#baka-tsuki [+v Lord-Simon] by DarkoNeko

15:29 < hayashi> teasers are supposed to entice newbie translators into picking up a project

15:30 -!- mode/#baka-tsuki [-vvv cautr`off Gosha Kanzar] by DarkoNeko

15:30 < hayashi> after being 'teased' by a small portion

15:30 < hayashi> krtyk

15:30 < hayashi> what you're proposing isn't a teaser

15:30 < cloudii> that was the original intention of the teaser initiative

15:30 < hayashi> it's a full project you're committing to

15:30 <+Lord-Simon> Yes, that is correct.

15:30 < hayashi> because you intend to continue

15:30 < krytyk> yeah, I know that. The case is that its mainly teasers that turn into normal projects

15:30 < krytyk> ATP isn't used very often

15:30 < hayashi> so far

15:30 < krytyk> making those rules a problem

15:30 < hayashi> not a lot of teasers have made the leap into full projects

15:31 < Kira0802> Teasers turn into projects because without the tag, they don't get visibility.

15:31 < cloudii> the observation is that everyone uses the teaser tag is an intermediate to full project nowadays

15:31 < cloudii> Here's how I see it:

15:31 < krytyk> thus my point is to merge ATP with teasers and create a separate set of rules.

15:31 < cloudii> add Teaser as an official intermediate in the workflow

15:31 -!- rock96 [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki

15:31 < cloudii> or merge/delete ATP tag with teasers

15:31 < Kira0802> long time no see, rock

15:31 < hayashi> I think

15:31 < hayashi> teasers should remain as so

15:31 < rock96> Hi to all, yeah

15:32 < hayashi> but the ATP tag should be moderated/enforced more

15:32 < cloudii> The issue is that, there's no way for the ATP tag to be moderated

15:32 < krytyk> if ATP is moderated, people will just continue as teasers until they qualify to full projects

15:32 < hayashi> if you integrate teasers into the project flow

15:32 < krytyk> thus making ATP oboslete

15:32 < cloudii> because the assumption, currently

15:32 < cloudii> is that all translators claim their uploaded translation is a teaser

15:32 < hayashi> it makes people assume every teaser will become a full project eventually

15:32 < cloudii> rendering ATP unnecessary

15:32 <&DarkoNeko> hayashi, that seems to be the goal of the teasers, tho

15:33 < hayashi> hm

15:33 < cloudii> that's why 2/67 projects in the teaser section have ATP tags

15:33 < Misogi> If I may say a word, I saw some English projects with the ATP tag, to make sure that they end in the sidebar.

15:33 < krytyk> translators try to avoid the regulations

15:33 < Kira0802> I think teasers can stay the way they are. ATP tag should be put only when a project meets requirements to become a full project (Basically, just for the mods to approve the project), and the one-week thing should be deleted

15:33 < hayashi> maybe I didn't phrase myself properly

15:33 < krytyk> you dont fight it with more regulations

15:33 < hayashi> like

15:33 < hayashi> teaser projects should only be tagged as teasers

15:33 < cloudii> So, at the very least, it looks like we're in favor of redefining the ATP tag

15:33 < Lery> Kira0802 +1

15:34 < hayashi> if the translator has no intention of continuing

15:34 < hayashi> because if he does intend to

15:34 < cloudii> I disagree with you hayashi

15:34 <&DarkoNeko> ah, that differentiation

15:34 < hayashi> then it's not really a teaser anymore

15:34 < krytyk> sounds good, so a translator tags the series with ATP, and a mod checks if it qualifies

15:34 < zzhk> the deletion warning is kind of misleading, because projects are sometimes tagged ATP for lacking a registration page

15:34 < cloudii> because the teasers tag is the only way to bring visibility to teasers

15:34 < krytyk> thus teaser + tag = full project (if fulfills the reqs)

15:34 < cloudii> ^that works too

15:35 < Misogi> ^ Yeah, it's not a bad idea.

15:35 < Kira0802> hayashi, the problem is that if you don't tage your series a teaser, you have no visibility in the sidebar

15:35 < cloudii> there are many solutions to this that I think works well

15:35 < cloudii> Kira +1

15:35 < hayashi> aren't we getting rid of the sidebar?

15:35 <+Lord-Simon> That is for later

15:35 <&DarkoNeko> yes.

15:35 <+Lord-Simon> wait

15:35 < cloudii> We're replacing it with links to categories

15:35 <&DarkoNeko> well, changing it

15:35 < cloudii> The only way for any new project to get visibility

15:35 < cloudii> is to either be in the English category

15:35 < cloudii> *English Teaser

15:35 < cloudii> or Light Novel Category

15:36 < cloudii> That's the rationale for most translators to tag teasers

15:36 < cloudii> when their project has not been approved yet

15:36 < hayashi> ok

15:36 < hayashi> but if

15:36 < Kira0802> So a pending project without a teaser tag becomes something like Moku-something Alice

15:36 < hayashi> we are getting rid of the deadline

15:36 < hayashi> translators won't have the need to tag their work as a teaser anymore, right?

15:36 < cloudii> No, they do

15:36 < hayashi> since they won't be under any deadline

15:36 < krytyk> aren't we changing the purpose of atp?

15:36 <+Lord-Simon> Vote yes or no to remove the deadline in the teaser.

15:37 < cloudii> there is no deadline for teaser...

15:37 < cloudii> there's a deadline for ATP

15:37 < krytyk> one sec simon, we discussed more so let's make a more complete conclusion for a vote

15:37 < rock96> ^what he said

15:37 <+Lord-Simon> ATP, sorry.

15:37 < Kira0802> Yea for ATP

15:37 < hayashi> ok

15:37 < hayashi> uh

15:37 <&DarkoNeko> people, it doesn't look like we will arrive to an agreement for the teaser and ATP thing today. I think it would be better for a small group to work on it on the side and then propose it on the forum/another meeting once it's ready

15:37 < hayashi> I'm gonna type out what I think

15:37 < krytyk> no. Cloudii, formulate a statement

15:37 <&DarkoNeko> we're having a good discussion and all, but at this rate we won't have time for any of the other subjects

15:37 < victorrama> True

15:37 < cloudii> um

15:38 < hayashi> teasers should be kept as teasers, but the atp deadline should be removed so that future translators have more flexibility

15:38 < hayashi> does that make sense?

15:38 < cloudii> We should remove the 1 week deadline for ATP

15:38 < Kira0802> yes, hayashi

15:38 < cloudii> require ATP to be tagged with all new project pages

15:38 < Vallor> Are you saying that teasers and new projects are the same thing? New projects should be in the LN category and teasers in a teaser category, that's all.

15:38 < cloudii> including Teaser pages

15:38 < cloudii> so the purpose of ATP

15:38 < cloudii> is for a mod to check the page

15:38 < hayashi> oh I'm saying teasers are seperate from new projects

15:38 < hayashi> any new project will have to be to tagged with ATP

15:38 < cloudii> but if the page is satisfactory, ATP can be removed

15:38 < hayashi> ^

15:38 < cloudii> the teaser tag is kept

15:38 < cloudii> that's my proposal

15:38 < krytyk> mm, ATP for all projects that have at least 1 chapter not including prologue. And then the ATP pages are to be judged by a mod.

15:39 < krytyk> isnt that better cloudi

15:39 < Kira0802> @Vallor Pending approval are reffered as New projects here, vallor

15:39 < Lery> Actually the teaser tag should mean that it was translated just for fun and it's there to be discovered but that nobody is currently working further on it, isn't it ?

15:39 < cloudii> krytyk's suggestion is also satisfactory

15:39 < Vallor> ATP should be removed, or be added on new projects only. Teaser shouldn't have to be tagged as pending approval...

15:39 < cloudii> @Lery, that was the original definition, but practically that isn't the case anymore

15:39 < Kira0802> @Vallor or rather, those that are created but don't meet the requirements

15:39 < krytyk> thus teasers be teasers and can have just prologue, and ATP is a sign for mod to judge a series.

15:39 < krytyk> that wants to become a full project.

15:39 < cloudii> krytyk's proposal I'm in favor with as well

15:40 < Lery> @cloudii Well, isn't it because of that time limit we're wanting to remove ?

15:40 < hayashi> I'm ok with that

15:40 < cloudii> I would like to remove the time limit as well

15:40 < krytyk> the time limit is unneccesary then

15:40 < cloudii> Someone with supervisor access needs to rewrite the entire tag

15:40 < krytyk> as it already has 1 chapter when the tag is put on.

15:40 < Misogi> May someone clarify the changes and launch the vote?

15:40 < cloudii> http://i.imgur.com/JC6zsLM.png

15:40 < Kira0802> OK, so remove time limit, use tag just for upgrade.

15:40 < Kira0802> Teasers stay teasers.

15:40 < hayashi> sounds good

15:40 < cloudii> 1). Teaser tag is the default tag to be put on new project

15:40 < krytyk> yup

15:41 < cloudii> 2). When the teaser reaches the requirements for full project, translator tags Pending

15:41 < cloudii> 3). Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis approve

15:41 < cloudii> that's it

15:41 <+Lord-Simon> yes

15:41 <+Lord-Simon> Or any other Supervisor

15:41 < krytyk> simplifies a ton, and no hanging pending projects in a separate category.

15:41 < cloudii> Can we vote to agree?

15:41 < Kira0802> OK

15:41 < hayashi> simon call for a vote?

15:41 < Misogi> May I add something?

15:42 <+Lord-Simon> We are now voting for cloudii's summary

15:42 < Vallor> By full project, you mean a series completely translated?

15:42 <&DarkoNeko> no

15:42 <+Lord-Simon> Vote yes if you agree, no if you disagree

15:42 < cloudii> full project, meaning like "sidebar project"

15:42 < Kira0802> No, a full project=project in the sidebar

15:42 <&DarkoNeko> okay, please repeat exact what we are voting for, cloudii

15:42 < Vallor> Okay, so I'm agree

15:42 < cloudii> : 1). Teaser tag is the default tag to be put on new project

15:42 <&DarkoNeko> then everyone vote

15:42 < cloudii> : 2). When the teaser reaches the requirements for full project, translator tags Pending

15:42 < cloudii> 3). Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis approve

15:42 < cloudii> (or some supervisor)

15:43 <+Lord-Simon> Vote yes or no

15:43 < Kira0802> Yea

15:43 < cloudii> Yes

15:43 < Cthaeh> yes

15:43 < krytyk> yes

15:43 < rock96> Yep

15:43 < hayashi> yes

15:43 < stellarroze> yes

15:43 <+Lord-Simon> if you vote no, explain yourself after the vote

15:43 < Code-Zero> yes

15:43 < Vallor> Yes but what's happened to the deadline?

15:43 < Misogi> Yes (although the Alt. Languages situation should be clarified).

15:43 < hayashi> it will be gone

15:43 < cloudii> We'll discuss that next

15:43 <&DarkoNeko> removed

15:43 <+Lord-Simon> Deadlinewill beremoved

15:43 < cloudii> Okay

15:43 < cloudii> that works too

15:43 < cloudii> <3

15:43 <&DarkoNeko> yes

15:43 -!- Nurin [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki

15:43 <&DarkoNeko> well, the point 3 is a bit of pickle, but it seems glboally good

15:43 < Lery> yes

15:43 < krytyk> deadline is removed, as the tag is only to be put after 1 chapter (prologue aside) is to be already finished.

15:44 < Lery> Any supervisor can handle point 3 I thinl

15:44 < cloudii> Onto next point?

15:44 < Lery> Any supervisor can handle point 3 I think*

15:44 <+Lord-Simon> yes

15:44 < Vallor> thAgree with Lery

15:44 < cloudii> Point 3 is like this now, because only those individuals ahve sidebar access

15:44 < Vallor> Agree*

15:44 < Kira0802> ^

15:44 < cloudii> but if we lose the sidebar, I'm in favor for any supervisor approval

15:44 < Lery> @Cloudii, let's go. Shouldn't we talk about sidebar modification ?

15:44 < Kira0802> it's not anyone who can put projects on the sidebar atm

15:44 < zzhk> so for substandard projects (e.g. no translated content), the deletion template (http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Category:Speedy_Deletion) will be slapped on instead of ATP﹖

15:45 < cloudii> Thank you zzhk, I agree with that too

15:45 < Misogi> There's the exception of Alt. Lang., where supervisors handle that.

15:45 <&DarkoNeko> should't it be normal deletion, ratehr than speedy ? actually, do we have a normal deletion process ?

15:45 < hayashi> I'm good with that

15:45 <&DarkoNeko> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Talk:Meeting:March302014#teaser_status_.2F_ATP alright, it's written down

15:45 < cloudii> Also, can we assign someone

15:45 <+Lord-Simon> No we don'T

15:45 < hayashi> deleting without warning

15:45 < cloudii> to rewrite this:

15:45 < cloudii> http://i.imgur.com/JC6zsLM.png

15:45 < cloudii> It's protected

15:45 < hayashi> might be vandalism

15:45 <+Lord-Simon> we should discuss the deletion process

15:45 < Kira0802> Darko can

15:45 < hayashi> or not give the guy a fair chance to upload stuff

15:45 <+Lord-Simon> but that is later for the forum

15:46 <&DarkoNeko> we'll do the deed later

15:46 < Kira0802> nxt point?

15:46 < victorrama> Yes

15:46 < cloudii> Okay

15:46 <&DarkoNeko> alright. What is the next point, then ?

15:46 < cloudii> Point 3

15:46 < cloudii> There are number of instances int he rules

15:46 < cloudii> that require members to "email" supervisors

15:46 < cloudii> .......

15:46 < hayashi> this is a related point

15:46 < cloudii> Remove all references thereof

15:46 < hayashi> but a lot of the supervisors listed are no longer active

15:46 <+Lord-Simon> yes, looks like it

15:46 < cloudii> of that form of contact

15:47 < Misogi> I agree on making a single page for contact.

15:47 <+Lord-Simon> but if we look at the discussion before

15:47 < krytyk> either forums, direct (irc) contact, or PM

15:47 <+Lord-Simon> we can remove that part

15:47 < Kira0802> Darko

15:47 < zzhk> speaking of "supervisors", we should prioritize the issue of wiki supervisor protection rights

15:47 <&DarkoNeko> let's do it properly people

15:47 <+Lord-Simon> as any supervisor will go through newly created project

15:47 <+Lord-Simon> if they have the tags

15:47 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, starting the vote ? there's not much to discuss here XD

15:47 < cloudii> Actually, I really want to echo zzhk here (if DarkoNeko is capable of doing anything abou tit)

15:47 <+Lord-Simon> Wait

15:48 < Vallor> Misogi is right. A single page of contact is good enough.

15:48 <+Lord-Simon> We are talking about a mail-list creating

15:48 <+Lord-Simon> *creation.

15:48 < cloudii> Um, acutally yeah

15:48 <&DarkoNeko> argh, what

15:48 <+Lord-Simon> mailing list

15:48 < cloudii> DarkoNeko I neglected to explain half of my thing

15:48 <&DarkoNeko> I don't want that, i hate mails

15:48 < Lery> @zzhk, we're waiting for TLG before talking about those administrative problems ;)

15:48 < cloudii> so, the issue is

15:48 <&DarkoNeko> no way i'm getting on another mailing list

15:48 < cloudii> currently members are told to contact "A supervisor"

15:48 < cloudii> preferably all of them

15:48 < cloudii> but we all know that they usually only contact one

15:49 < cloudii> but if a translator looking for project approval

15:49 <+Lord-Simon> That's why a mailing list

15:49 < cloudii> posts on TLG's talk page

15:49 < cloudii> clearly it's not going to get lookd at

15:49 <+Lord-Simon> or one mail, that sens to many

15:49 < Misogi> "Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made.", as Cloudii wrote in his topic.

15:49 < Kira0802> Can we just create a page on the Wiki for "Requests" or something?

15:49 < Lery> Yeah, that's a major problem.

15:49 <&DarkoNeko> no no no

15:49 <&DarkoNeko> not a mailing list.

15:49 <+Lord-Simon> What else ?

15:49 < cloudii> If we have no mailing list, it's okay too

15:50 < Lery> We could either use a topic on the forum for that purpose, or a dedicated Wiki page, couldn't we ?

15:50 < Kira0802> So a wiki page?

15:50 <&DarkoNeko> especially when we can just have a maintenance page dedicated to that on the wiki

15:50 < cloudii> "Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made."

15:50 < Lery> Or even both

15:50 < cloudii> That's the proposal

15:50 <&DarkoNeko> yes, like a wikipedia's request for deletion, for maintenance, for adminship etc

15:50 < Kira0802> Then...we settle for a wiki page?

15:50 < rock96> um, what about simply forwarding people to the forum directly to make a thread?

15:50 < cloudii> Registration issues with forums

15:50 < cloudii> captcha

15:50 < hayashi> forum wiki integration is a seprate issue

15:50 <&DarkoNeko> the more things directly on the wiki the better

15:50 < cloudii> "Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made."

15:50 < Lery> I think that we could go with both : one wiki page for wiki addicts and one forum page for forum addicts...

15:50 < cloudii> Anyone against this?

15:50 <+Lord-Simon> no

15:50 < Kira0802> No

15:50 <&DarkoNeko> no

15:51 <+Lord-Simon> two instances is bad

15:51 < Vallor> A 'Link here the project you would like to be approved' wiki page

15:51 < rock96> guests are allowed to make posts. And we're lurking around approving posts...

15:51 < Misogi> May I add something?

15:51 <+Lord-Simon> really bad

15:51 <+Lord-Simon> yes

15:51 < Kira0802> misogi, just say something lol, don't ask

15:51 < krytyk> Vallor, we already have decided ATP tag for that

15:51 < cloudii> ^^

15:51 < Lery> @Lord-Simon, I don't think so : there are as much supervisor on the forum as on the wiki...

15:51 < Misogi> We should divide it into sections (languages, approval...), and delete regularly the things once they're done.

15:51 < Vallor> krytyk: Isn't it exactly the same issue? I'm lost...

15:51 < krytyk> its not

15:52 < victorrama> Most suoervisors do nothing

15:52 < cloudii> "Assign an individual to clean that page of off-topic and resolved material. "

15:52 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, can't be, I mean, i don't have a forum account

15:52 < krytyk> we're speaking about sueprvisors-only things to do

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15:52 < cloudii> Yes Misogi <3

15:52 < Misogi> Then I'm on the idea. Summary?

15:52 < krytyk> Protecting pages a prime example.

15:52 < cloudii> Yup

15:52 < cloudii> 1). Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made. This should be at location that all sysops/supervisors monitor.

15:52 < Misogi> Protection -> Yes.

15:52 < cloudii> 2). Assign an individual to clean that page of off-topic and resolved material. (I'll even volunteer myself if no one wants to do it).

15:52 < cloudii> That's it

15:52 < Kira0802> Yea

15:53 <&DarkoNeko> the point 2 is a problem

15:53 < Lery> @DarkoNeko : it's not a problem, you'll handle the wiki request and the supervisors with forum account will handle the forum's ones...

15:53 < krytyk> the same person who grants the requests should delete it

15:53 < Misogi> ^

15:53 <+Lord-Simon> ^

15:53 < cloudii> That's fair too <3

15:53 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, that, yes

15:53 <+Lord-Simon> 1). Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made. This should be at location that all sysops/supervisors monitor.

15:53 <&DarkoNeko> but for other stuff, having a pool of people rather than "an individual" is better

15:53 < Vallor> I'm agree with krytyk

15:54 < cloudii> Sure, my wording was bad. My intent was just to say that the page needs to get cleaned

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15:54 < Misogi> "I agree", Vallor.

15:54 < Lery> Having only one individual is always bad, we never know what may happen.

15:54 <+Lord-Simon> 2). Any supervisor that grants the ok to a request will delete the request.

15:54 <+Lord-Simon> *an ok

15:54 < cloudii> Motion for Simon's proposal?

15:54 < Vallor> Misogi: Sorry, I always make this mistake...

15:54 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, that's pretty much a given

15:54 <+Lord-Simon> yes

15:54 < Misogi> Yes.

15:54 < cloudii> yes

15:54 < Kira0802> Yea

15:54 < rock96> Yes.

15:54 <&DarkoNeko> agreed

15:54 < krytyk> y

15:55 < Lery> yes

15:55 < cloudii> Motion accepted… apparently?

15:55 <+Lord-Simon> YEs

15:55 <+Lord-Simon> it is accepted

15:55 < hayashi> yes

15:55 < Kira0802> Indeed...next point?

15:55 <+Lord-Simon> ^

15:55 < cloudii> Okay, I'm going to skip Point 4 on my outline

15:55 <+Lord-Simon> wait

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15:55 < cloudii> that'll take too much time

15:55 <+Lord-Simon> just tell about point 4

15:55 <+Lord-Simon> for information

15:55 < Kira0802> ^

15:56 < cloudii> It's a bunch of topics that I suggested that we create rules for

15:56 < Kira0802> err

15:56 < Misogi> Since you gave the things to add...

15:56 < cloudii> for example, the Wiki lacks general behavior rules

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15:56 -!- masoatwork is now known as victorrama

15:56 < cloudii> Or well,

15:56 < Kira0802> let's move that to the forums then?

15:56 <&DarkoNeko> "don't be a dick or we'll ban you"

15:56 < cloudii> Well, do people want to discuss this?

15:56 < hayashi> no

15:56 < Misogi> No need.

15:56 < Kira0802> no

15:56 <&DarkoNeko> nah, let's skip

15:56 <+Lord-Simon> not here

15:56 < cloudii> Fair

15:56 <+Lord-Simon> not now

15:56 < cloudii> Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules.

15:57 < Misogi> Er, you forgot #5

15:57 <+Lord-Simon> Hmmm....

15:57 < Lery> We can discuss it later on the forum, Cloudii

15:57 <+Lord-Simon> I would disagree.

15:57 < cloudii> Oh. Actually, imo, it's unecessary if sidebar gets scrapped

15:57 < cloudii> (point 5 thatis)

15:57 <&DarkoNeko> I never was fond of having anything like that on the forum

15:57 <&DarkoNeko> a wiki reader won't go there to look for rules

15:57 < cloudii> Simon, can you explain why you disagree?

15:57 < Kira0802> Forums rule to the Wiki or Wiki Rules in the forum to the WIki?

15:57 <+Lord-Simon> We can have two identical versions on forums and on the wiki

15:57 < Kira0802> there's a difference here

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15:58 < cloudii> Forum rules on forums, Wiki rules on Wiki

15:58 < cloudii> remove Wiki rules on forums

15:58 < Lery> Yeah that should be so.

15:58 <+Lord-Simon> Ah

15:58 <+Lord-Simon> yes

15:58 < Kira0802> Yea

15:58 <&DarkoNeko> hmm, then putting a link to the wiki page on the forum

15:58 < Vallor> agreed

15:58 <+Lord-Simon> That explains it.

15:58 < cloudii> Yes, DarkoNeko

15:58 < Misogi> ^

15:58 < Cthaeh> yes

15:58 < krytyk> I suggest we discuss mechanics first, behavioural rules other day

15:58 < Lery> yes

15:58 <+Lord-Simon> So, I guess we don't even need to vote.

15:59 < victorrama> ^

15:59 < cloudii> Sure

15:59 < cloudii> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Baka-Tsuki:Rules

15:59 < cloudii> DarkoNeko, could you move the rules here?

15:59 < cloudii> and then link this onto the sidebar?

15:59 < Lery> That's mechanic ^^ It's about rules' location, not about the rules themselves.

15:59 <&DarkoNeko> ask me again after the meeting

15:59 < cloudii> Sure

15:59 <&DarkoNeko> I'm not doing anything until we finished

15:59 < Misogi> Don't forget to put a link on the Main Page.

15:59 < Lery> Aren't you already taking the minutes ?

15:59 < cloudii> Last

15:59 < cloudii> Part 3: Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.

15:59 < cloudii> I just want official recognition for this

16:00 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, loosely, i'm only putting the votes

16:00 < cloudii> no writing being done here....

16:00 < krytyk> Not really an issue we need to discuss IMHO.

16:00 < Lery> I guess your multitasking has limits '^^

16:00 <&DarkoNeko> I'll try whoever is keeping logs to make a better version later

16:00 < cloudii> Can we get official recognition for the support of creating help pages?

16:00 < Lery> You have my approval Cloudii

16:00 < cloudii> yes/no

16:00 <+Lord-Simon> If I remember right, cloudii, you have made a page for that

16:00 < krytyk> well, yes

16:00 < Lery> Go ahead make us nice help pages ^^

16:00 <&DarkoNeko> ...does this REALLY need to be voted ? it seems like a given

16:00 <+Lord-Simon> ^

16:00 < Kira0802> Yea

16:00 < cloudii> I've never gotten direct approval from anyone… so....

16:00 < krytyk> thats what i said;

16:00 <&DarkoNeko> the dissent would be on what to put exactly on pages

16:00 <+Lord-Simon> just add it to the list that will be done

16:01 < cloudii> Cool, okay, that covers everything from my end

16:01 < Misogi> There's also the problem of visibility.

16:01 < Lery> yeah, if you had taken initiative to do it on your own, nobody would have complained ;)

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16:01 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, on a wiki, if you wait for approvals nothing ever gets done

16:01 < Misogi> Sure, there are rules, but if you can't find them easily...

16:01 <+Lord-Simon> Gonna mail TLG

16:01 <+Lord-Simon> *sigh*

16:02 < Kira0802> we'll just post there on the sidebar/main page, misogi

16:02 < Lery> Yeah, those help pages should be located so that you find them easily.

16:02 < krytyk> where does he live, lets raid him;

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16:02 < Misogi> Should be sleeping.

16:02 < Kira0802> i saw his phone number

16:02 < Lery> Ahahah, he's on the west cost, isn't he ?

16:02 < Kira0802> wanna call him?

16:02 <&DarkoNeko> let him sleep

16:02 < rock96> ...huh?

16:02 < Lery> Anybody has him on skype ?

16:03 < Kira0802> lolno

16:03 <&DarkoNeko> better no TLG than a very pissed TLG ^^;

16:03 < cloudii> I suppose this meeting will get rescheduled for another day for the other adminstrative stuff

16:03 < krytyk> though its going to be a pain if he turns out after everyone leaves

16:03 < hayashi> should take the time to settle the stuff that doesn't need tlg

16:03 <&DarkoNeko> well, i have a few points, but we already had discussed them on a smaller group and partially implemented them (until i got too busy ^^;)

16:03 <+Lord-Simon> no

16:03 <+Lord-Simon> I will be here

16:03 <+Lord-Simon> for the next few hours

16:04 <+Lord-Simon> I can look out for him

16:04 < cloudii> "Wrong link leading to the wiki's Copyrights page."

16:04 < cloudii> DarkoNeko can do that, right? 8D

16:04 < Kira0802> we'll just vote on issues and ask TLG to approve, and the decision belongs to him

16:04 <&DarkoNeko> yeah, that has little to do with TLG lol

16:04 < cloudii> We could do what Kira said too

16:04 <+Lord-Simon> ah

16:04 < Lery> Yeah, that's jsut a

16:04 < Lery> Yeah, that's just a ".net" at the bad place

16:04 < Misogi> Not really.

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16:05 <&DarkoNeko> yes, details of link change later, please

16:05 <+Lord-Simon> @DarkoNeko, do you have access to the blog ?

16:05 < cloudii> DarkoNeko, as a wiki sysop, can you assign usergroups powers or is that no?

16:05 < Misogi> Already written?

16:05 <+Lord-Simon> Of B-T ?

16:05 < Misogi> .*

16:05 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, I can assign people to select groups, but I cannot create new groups

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16:06 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, not tha tI know of

16:06 < cloudii> Thanks, so you can't help us xD

16:06 < cloudii> Let's go to groups reorganization

16:06 < cloudii> rename exactly who to remove off the groups

16:06 < cloudii> and who to put on

16:06 < Lery> @Lord-Simon : I think Kira0802 has access to the blog...

16:06 < hayashi> that's more for forums, right?

16:06 < Misogi> Inactive members, that's a given.

16:06 <&DarkoNeko> defining inactivity. is that "over a year" ?

16:06 < Misogi> I'd rather say 6 months.

16:06 <+Lord-Simon> So, we are now discussing the Users of certain groups

16:06 < kry> its "ever since forever"

16:06 <&DarkoNeko> and condition for them to get the right back if they come back, as well

16:06 < cloudii> We're also talking about forum usergroups

16:07 <+Lord-Simon> and the rearrangement ?

16:07 <&DarkoNeko> eh, do that on the forum, I'm only interested in the wiki :D

16:07 < zzhk> I think DarkoNeko misunderstood cloudii's question on wiki user groups, rather than creating new groups﹐ can you modify a group's powers?

16:07 < cloudii> brb

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16:07 < Misogi> Well, remove all inactive members from all groups.

16:07 < Lery> Why remove them ? Just add new people if old people go MIA

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16:07 < Misogi> In case they get hacked.

16:08 < Misogi> That's a decent reason.

16:08 < Vallor> Inactive members -> people who didn't posted any work since 6 months at least, or people we don't have news since a while?

16:08 <&DarkoNeko> zzhk, not that I know of

16:08 < Lery> Well, from that POV, I think it's true the more people with rights, the more risks we have that someone get hacked.

16:08 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, it's so people don't ask inactive to do things

16:08 <+Lord-Simon> Well, I can edit Digital Editors, Project Editors and tsukaima legion

16:08 <&DarkoNeko> but yeah, there's also the hacking possibility

16:09 <+Lord-Simon> well

16:09 <&DarkoNeko> hmm

16:09 < krytyk> wait. separate wiki and forums issues

16:09 <&DarkoNeko> anyway, let's simplify the motion for now.

16:09 < krytyk> now we are talking about wiki

16:09 < rock96> Judging by what I've seen, no need to discuss Tsukaima Legion

16:09 < zzhk> is there any incentive to hack B-T wiki accounts, however?

16:09 < krytyk> forums later.

16:09 < Lery> @Lord-Simon : isn't that on the forum ?

16:09 <+Lord-Simon> yes

16:09 < Lery> ok

16:09 <+Lord-Simon> are we talking about the wiki ?

16:09 <&DarkoNeko> zzhk, the same as hacking wikiepdia admin account, but people do

16:09 < Misogi> A spammer with a hacked account will cause more damage.

16:10 < Lery> Are we discussing about forum's groups or wiki's currently ?

16:10 < Misogi> Wiki.

16:10 < Misogi> Forum is kept for TLG.

16:10 < Vallor> Misogi: A ban wouldn't be enough?

16:10 < cloudii> I see no particular reason to remove inactive Wiki supervisors, if we have a single location for placing administrative requests

16:10 < Misogi> You have to clean up the mess.

16:10 < Lery> Actually Oni has the needed rights to do the needed modifications on the forum...

16:11 < Kira0802> cloudii is right

16:11 <&DarkoNeko> I feel we should have a minimum activity setting for removal, nonetheless. even if it's a long long time

16:11 < Vallor> Misogi: You just have to delete all the recent changes...

16:11 < hayashi> it's more for decluttering

16:11 <+Lord-Simon> well, there is the http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Special:ActiveUsers

16:11 <+Lord-Simon> but it's limited to the last 30 days

16:11 < cloudii> that's one month activity

16:11 < Vallor> remove*

16:11 < cloudii> I was just reminded of something....

16:12 < cloudii> Do we have protocol for dealing with inactive project supervisors?

16:12 < hayashi> nope

16:12 < Kira0802> no

16:12 <&DarkoNeko> none

16:12 <+Lord-Simon> No

16:12 < cloudii> okay, do we want protocol?

16:12 <&DarkoNeko> I do

16:12 <+Lord-Simon> Yes

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16:12 < Kira0802> RIP Nera. ;_;

16:12 < cloudii> Okay, I'll propose something on the spot

16:12 <+Lord-Simon> Protocol is always good

16:12 <&DarkoNeko> since there wil lbe dissent on the exact duration, we should take the longest for now

16:12 < cloudii> 6 months inactivity is definition for inactvity

16:13 < rock96> all hail commie wiki

16:13 < cloudii> Someone who would like the position

16:13 <&DarkoNeko> I propose that anyone with over a year of inactivity will lose his right

16:13 < cloudii> should contact a Wiki Supervisor

16:13 < cloudii> The Wiki Supervisor

16:13 <+Lord-Simon> hello

16:13 < cloudii> can judge whether the Project Supervisor

16:13 < cloudii> should be replaced

16:13 <+Lord-Simon> or sysop ?

16:13 < Kira0802> kk

16:13 < cloudii> the end

16:13 <&DarkoNeko> and that, should they come back withing a year after that, could regain those rights on simple demand

16:13 < Vallor> cloudii: what's your definition of 'inactivity'?

16:13 < cloudii> Hmm...

16:13 <&DarkoNeko> no action on wiki

16:13 <&DarkoNeko> none at all

16:14 < cloudii> I think that, anyone should be able to place a request

16:14 < hayashi> what's the current setting anyway

16:14 < cloudii> to be instated over an apparent Project Supervisor

16:14 < hayashi> the project super defaults to the head translator?

16:14 < cloudii> but for reference of the Administration

16:14 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, you're kinda assumed we have a limited number of seats

16:14 < Kira0802> no action, no sign of presence, no demand of absence

16:14 <&DarkoNeko> -ed+ing

16:14 <+Lord-Simon> brb

16:14 < cloudii> @hayashi, nothing. There name just stays there.

16:15 < hayashi> the 2nd thing is

16:15 < hayashi> what rights do project supers have

16:15 < cloudii> All rights with regards to the project...

16:15 < cloudii> which is a lot

16:15 < Vallor> Kira0802: No sign of presence on the wiki or on the forum too?

16:15 < Kira0802> yeah

16:15 < Kira0802> boh

16:15 < cloudii> For example: "British English vs American English, etc"

16:16 < Vallor> Kira0802: ok, thx

16:16 < cloudii> Okay, so we can just say:

16:16 <&DarkoNeko> uh, so, we include the forum ? meh

16:16 < cloudii> 1) If a Project Supervisor has no sign of presence on the wiki or on the forum too, a translator can request to become to new project supervisor

16:16 <+Lord-Simon> Darko

16:16 <&DarkoNeko> me

16:16 <+Lord-Simon> Go create an account

16:16 <&DarkoNeko> no.

16:16 <+Lord-Simon> I'll answer the question

16:16 <+Lord-Simon> GO

16:17 < Kira0802> on the wiki and on the forums*, cloudii

16:17 < hayashi> lol

16:17 <&DarkoNeko> i have nothing to do there

16:17 < hayashi> neko

16:17 < Kira0802> oh wait

16:17 < Kira0802> misread

16:17 < Kira0802> w/e

16:17 < cloudii> (I just copy pasted) lol

16:17 <&DarkoNeko> for me, there is only the wiki, and IRC

16:17 <+Lord-Simon> damn cat

16:17 <+Lord-Simon> what if I give you an acc ?

16:17 <&DarkoNeko> wikipedia ain't need no stinking forums

16:17 <&DarkoNeko> no.

16:17 < Vallor> If you're active on the wiki, that's enough.

16:17 <&DarkoNeko> I won't use it. I don't have time to read forums

16:18 < Kira0802> No sign of presence means no one has seen you

16:18 < Kira0802> this includes forums and wiki

16:18 < cloudii> Forum & Wiki or Wiki Only?

16:18 <&DarkoNeko> well, before that, let's do a more genera thing

16:18 < cloudii> vote

16:18 <&DarkoNeko> no, no, no, that's too precise

16:18 < Kira0802> Forum & Wiki

16:18 < cloudii> DarkoNeko explain?

16:18 < Vallor> I'd add social networks/mails as well...

16:18 <&DarkoNeko> so, starting with basics :

16:19 < Kira0802> If a supervisor's not there on the wiki and just on the forums, you can throw a PM at him

16:19 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, we were talking about inactivity in general, now you're on proejcts supervisors on particular

16:19 < cloudii> project supervisors in general

16:19 < cloudii> in this instance

16:19 < cloudii> because there's only one position for it

16:19 <&DarkoNeko> "anyone with over a year of inactivity will lose his rights on the wiki."

16:19 < cloudii> Are we voting?

16:19 <+Lord-Simon> as a project supervisors

16:19 <+Lord-Simon> *r

16:20 < Kira0802> project admins/supervisors

16:20 <+Lord-Simon> Hmm...

16:20 <&DarkoNeko> do project supervisors have physical rights ?

16:20 < Kira0802> a random editor doesn't need to have his rights revoked, since we don't care

16:20 <&DarkoNeko> I'm talking about wiki groups ^^;

16:20 < Kira0802> project editors can lock pages

16:20 < cloudii> @DarkoNeko. There is no project supervisor wiki group

16:20 < Kira0802> supervisors*

16:20 <&DarkoNeko> then they're on a particular group

16:20 < Kira0802> @cloudii there is

16:20 < Kira0802> well

16:20 < cloudii> there's a wiki supervisor group

16:20 < Kira0802> just "supervisor" though

16:21 <&DarkoNeko> let's do that on a few sets, then. 1) general activity 2) specifically for project supervisor replacement ?

16:21 < cloudii> yes, and we've taken tht�at to mean "Adminstration"

16:21 < Lery> Actually a lot of Project Supervisor aren't even Wiki Supervisors...

16:21 < cloudii> ^^

16:21 < Kira0802> that's not intended

16:21 < Kira0802> though.

16:21 <&DarkoNeko> all the more reason to have 2 separate motions

16:21 < cloudii> Can we start with DarkoNeko's motion?

16:21 < hayashi> wiki super and project super are two different level right

16:21 <+Lord-Simon> Well, because the projects have two things

16:22 <+Lord-Simon> as supervisor and an admin

16:22 <+Lord-Simon> in name only

16:22 < Misogi> We should rename it with "Project Manager"

16:22 < Lery> What's the point in having an Project Admin and a Project Supervisor, by the way ? What's the differences between both ?

16:22 < krytyk> ^Like misogi says

16:22 < Lery> -an+a

16:22 < krytyk> Supervisor is unclear at this point

16:22 < cloudii> Imo, project supervisor should not have to be an official member of administration

16:22 < hayashi> project admin is a carry over from the old days I think

16:22 < Vallor> Yeah, administrators and supervisors are a big mess, especially for Alt. laguages

16:22 < krytyk> there are wiki supervisors, and project supervisors

16:22 < Kira0802> Alt. languages are a big mess

16:22 < cloudii> I would like project supervisor to be the senior/leading translator

16:22 <&DarkoNeko> we're drfiting away again ._.

16:22 <+Lord-Simon> For me, as I see it.

16:22 < Kira0802> it's not about supervisors/admins for alt projects

16:23 < krytyk> Okay, can I write out few problems and possible solutions?

16:23 < Lery> And the project admin to be someone with Wiki Supervisor Rights ?

16:23 < stellarroze> my oh my

16:23 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, a bit later~

16:23 < Kira0802> fuck

16:23 < Kira0802> this is getting confusing

16:23 < krytyk> its for this topic~

16:23 < stellarroze> merge project supervisors and administrators

16:23 <+Lord-Simon> The project admin is a person who is responsible for the project and that the guidelines of the project are "used/enforced".

16:23 <&DarkoNeko> arg, mergin and renaming LATER

16:23 < Lery> ^+1

16:23 < stellarroze> into one position

16:23 < Kira0802> they are meant for different things

16:23 < Misogi> To avoid confusion, "Project Sup. -> Project Manager".

16:23 < Misogi> Can be anyone.

16:23 <&DarkoNeko> the subject is inactivity and then project supervisor replacement for now

16:23 < Vallor> Admins and supervisors should be a single group renamed on 'project manager'

16:24 <+Lord-Simon> The supervisor is a person who can be contacted and knows some details about that project.

16:24 <&DarkoNeko> all the rest is for after

16:24 < krytyk> we talk about Wiki supervisors or project supervisors darko

16:24 < krytyk> thats the peoint

16:24 < krytyk> point*

16:24 < Kira0802> Imagine the difference of wiki right an editor has in comparison with a TLer. Now, change editor to admin and TLer to supervisor

16:24 < krytyk> make it clear

16:24 < Kira0802> that's how I see the diff

16:24 <&DarkoNeko> I'm talking about inactivity

16:24 <+Lord-Simon> Better is that the Supervisor, is a real supervisor and can lock and protect pages

16:24 < Lery> Inactivity was already well defined I think...

16:24 < krytyk> yes, but you mean supervisors with rights, or project supervisors

16:24 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, but not voted

16:24 < Lery> Lord-Simon +1

16:24 < cloudii> I disagree with Simon

16:25 < Kira0802> Can we just merge Project supervisors with Wiki supervisors?

16:25 < Lery> But the Project Admin, right ?

16:25 <+Lord-Simon> No

16:25 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, the first point is anyone being in a right group on the wiki, the 2nd point will be about local project (LN) managers

16:25 < krytyk> no

16:25 < krytyk> exactly

16:25 < cloudii> because there's a lot of translators who would like to manage their projects

16:25 <&DarkoNeko> so, let's get the first point ou t of the way, please

16:25 < krytyk> so you talk about wiki supervisors and their inactivity

16:25 < krytyk> now we can vote.

16:25 < cloudii> Actually, I favor going back to DarkoNeko's topic

16:25 <&DarkoNeko> not wiki supervisor. any group with more right than the defaulty

16:25 < Lery> The Project Supervisor becomes Project Manager and the Project Admin has to have Supervisors' rights...

16:26 <&DarkoNeko> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Special:ListGroupRights <- we have all those groups

16:26 < Lery> What's the point about voting to define inactivity ???

16:26 < Vallor> What exactly are we talking about right now? About groups or inactivity?

16:26 <&DarkoNeko> so

16:26 < cloudii> Simon, you're the chair ;)

16:26 < rock96> Shuffling with editors and translators is going to be the pain...

16:26 <+Lord-Simon> Ok

16:26 -!- nanodesuyo [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki

16:26 <+Lord-Simon> First of all

16:27 <+Lord-Simon> we are voting for the inactivity period

16:27 < cloudii> Okay, DarkoNeko, can you repeat what we're voting for?

16:27 <&DarkoNeko> "anyone with over a year of inactivity will lose their special rights on the wiki."

16:27 < cloudii> Can we define special rights?

16:27 < Vallor> I don't like the '2 groups' idea...

16:27 <+Lord-Simon> one thing I wanted to say

16:28 -!- masoatwork [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki

16:28 -!- masoatwork is now known as victorrama

16:28 <+Lord-Simon> do we really want a year inactivity ?

16:28 <&DarkoNeko> any group they were put in (editor, supervisor, etc)

16:28 -!- Gwilthyunman [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki

16:28 < krytyk> anyone above user

16:28 < Vallor> 6 months aren't enough?

16:28 < Kira0802> special rights on the wiki.-->Project supervisor/admins

16:28 < hayashi> ^

16:28 <+Lord-Simon> My point is

16:28 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, it's purposelly large for now

16:28 <+Lord-Simon> It is.

16:28 <+Lord-Simon> Because

16:28 < krytyk> 6 months... unless they mentioned being away prior to that

16:28 <&DarkoNeko> I'm fairly sure we have people with 4 years od inactivity in those groups

16:29 <+Lord-Simon> 1. The passwords on the wiki are weak

16:29 <+Lord-Simon> 2

16:29 <&DarkoNeko> even wikipedia gives a 12 months period

16:29 <+Lord-Simon> 2. There is no password change enforcement.

16:29 <&DarkoNeko> both the french and the english version, as far as I know

16:29 < cloudii> Okay, so can I make a proposal?

16:29 <+Lord-Simon> go on

16:29 < Vallor> DarkoNeko: Everyone don't post everyday on Wikipedia...

16:29 < cloudii> 1). One year of inactivty = loss of physical wiki rights

16:29 < cloudii> 2). If you end up coming back, talk to a sysop to be reinstated

16:30 <&DarkoNeko> Vallor, wikipedia admins are supposed to be active epopel

16:30 < Kira0802> fine

16:30 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, exactly

16:30 < cloudii> vote?

16:30 <&DarkoNeko> approve

16:30 < Kira0802> I can agree on that

16:30 < Kira0802> Yea

16:30 <+Lord-Simon> Ok, vote

16:30 < Cthaeh> vote yes

16:30 < rock96> yes

16:30 < Lery> yes

16:30 < hayashi> mondai nai

16:30 < krytyk> y

16:30 <&DarkoNeko> vote y

16:30 < Vallor> yes

16:30 < victorrama> Yea

16:30 <+Lord-Simon> yes, even if I'm sceptical

16:31 < Vallor> (I'm sure 6 months are good enough though)

16:31 < Kira0802> (Same)

16:31 < cloudii> (I personally don't care)

16:31 < Vallor> ^^

16:31 < rock96> (Not really)

16:31 * DarkoNeko thinks he already has been inactive for 6 months

16:31 < cloudii> xD but can we move along?

16:31 < rock96> lol

16:31 < Vallor> You can

16:31 <+Lord-Simon> Vote : all approve

16:31 <+Lord-Simon> lol

16:31 < Misogi> Yes

16:32 <&DarkoNeko> well, not recently but somewhere between now and 2006

16:32 <+Lord-Simon> yes

16:32 < cloudii> okay, now onto the topic of the project/wiki supervisors........

16:32 < Kira0802> You can mark the length with an asterisk if it can be debated

16:32 <+Lord-Simon> Nect point ?

16:32 * Lery laught

16:32 <&DarkoNeko> so, secondary inactivity point, about the project leaders

16:32 < cloudii> OH right forgot

16:32 < cloudii> DarkoNeko's thing xD

16:32 * DarkoNeko blushes

16:32 <&DarkoNeko> what thing ?

16:32 * DarkoNeko hides

16:32 <+Lord-Simon> black thing

16:32 * Lord-Simon blushes

16:32 < cloudii> Okay: we left off on this

16:33 < Vallor> ...

16:33 < cloudii> inactivity defined as: Wiki only or total presence (including social media)

16:33 < Misogi> Total.

16:33 <&DarkoNeko> oh

16:33 <&DarkoNeko> uh.

16:33 < Misogi> I mean, there may be reasons.

16:33 <&DarkoNeko> let's keep that vague

16:33 < Kira0802> dunno for social media

16:33 <&DarkoNeko> let's say forum and wiki both count

16:33 < cloudii> I'm for keeping it vague xD

16:34 < Kira0802> i'm not going to add a random guy on Facebook to talk to him about BT

16:34 < Misogi> "Any lack of presence"

16:34 <+Lord-Simon> Reachability

16:34 <&DarkoNeko> but ... well, social media, as in chatting with them on facebook or twitter ? that's stretching it

16:34 < Kira0802> even though I'm already doing it.

16:34 <+Lord-Simon> that's what we are talking about

16:34 < Lery> Let's say you're active as long as you're sometimes on any BT-media...

16:34 < krytyk> as long as you show signs of life

16:34 < krytyk> lets leave it ambigious

16:34 < krytyk> but everyone knwos what it means

16:34 < Kira0802> Someone can check inactivity

16:34 < krytyk> lets not overcomplicate

16:34 < Lery> Yeah

16:34 <&DarkoNeko> that seems like stretching it

16:34 < cloudii> 1). If a Project Supervisor/Manager appears to be inactive

16:34 < Misogi> Or unless it was told beforehand.

16:35 <&DarkoNeko> we can easily check activity with the last post on the forum, or last edit on the wiki

16:35 <&DarkoNeko> but anything else if but a fuzzy thing, it's not hard data

16:35 < cloudii> 2). A translator may put in a request with Adminsitration, to be instated as the new Project Supervisor

16:35 < Kira0802> Let's settle for "has shown no sign of life"

16:35 < cloudii> and leave it to sysops/admins to decide

16:35 < Vallor> My point is inactivity should be 'people we don't have news since X months'

16:35 < cloudii> on a case-by case basis

16:35 < krytyk> lets discuss the subjects inactivity when we come down to it

16:35 < Lery> We could add in the rule that the said person is first asked through PM wheter (s)he's still active...

16:35 <+Lord-Simon> I'll say no to the no 2

16:35 < Lery> or not*

16:35 <+Lord-Simon> "as the new Project Supervisor"

16:35 < Kira0802> Nay to 2

16:36 < Kira0802> You leave it blank

16:36 < Kira0802> for the time being

16:36 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, hm, I don't really want people to just do 1 edit to keep their rights and then go awol for ayear again

16:36 < Lery> No, I disagree to 2 because we are mixing Project Supervisor with Wiki Supervisor there....

16:36 < cloudii> okay

16:36 < Misogi> May I propose something? (Will be long)

16:37 < cloudii> go ahead

16:37 < Vallor> DarkoNeko: +1

16:37 < Lery> Well, it'd be more polite from us to warn them first, no ?

16:37 < Misogi> First, rename Project Supervisors into Project Managers.

16:37 < Lery> Imagine we were to remove your Wiki rights because you were inactive for 370 days, you'd be pissed, no ?

16:37 < rock96> We can keep Supervisors busy before they go into the dark again, right? *grin*

16:37 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, I wouldn't notice, since I wasn't there :D

16:37 < Misogi> Anyone can become Manager.

16:37 < cloudii> Misogi +1

16:37 <&DarkoNeko> but from experience, yeah, a few ex wiki admin took it badly

16:37 < krytyk> lets listen to misogi now

16:38 < Kira0802> OK, fine with that

16:38 < krytyk> talking over one another is rude

16:38 <&DarkoNeko> even tho they were warned on their user talk page

16:38 < Vallor> Misogi: +1

16:38 < Lery> It costs us nothing to warn firstly I think

16:38 <&DarkoNeko> yes, a message on talk page

16:38 < Lery> @Misogi +1

16:38 <&DarkoNeko> ok, lemme add that on wiki

16:38 <+Lord-Simon> So, now we have "Project Admin" and "Project Managers" ?

16:39 < cloudii> So in this system: 1) Project Administrators are "Wiki supervisors" 2). Project Managers can be anymore (but preferably head translator)

16:39 <&DarkoNeko> Project Supervisors into Project Managers <- a short reason why ? do they have a particular physicial right currently ?

16:39 < Kira0802> I'm ok with that

16:39 < Misogi> For 1, Supervisors or above.

16:39 <+Lord-Simon> I'm confused by that too

16:39 < cloudii> Project Supervisors have no mod rights, but they have all rights with regards to translations

16:39 < cloudii> like "British English vs. American English"

16:39 < Lery> Well the term is currently misleading since Project Supervisors aren't official Wiki Supervisors

16:39 <+Lord-Simon> Because I see an admin responsible for the project

16:39 < Misogi> Well, it's to avoid confusions between Project and Wiki.

16:39 <&DarkoNeko> so, they're informal translation project leaders, in other words

16:39 < Kira0802> Let's replace project Admins by Wiki supervisor then

16:39 < cloudii> exactly, DarkoNeko

16:40 < Kira0802> no need to stay vague

16:40 <+Lord-Simon> Supervisors is the person who oversees if everything is ok, more or less

16:40 < cloudii> 1). Rename Project Admin to Wiki Supervisor

16:40 < Lery> @Kira0802 +1

16:40 <+Lord-Simon> and enters the scene when there are problems

16:40 < cloudii> 2). Rename Project Supervisor to Project Manager

16:40 < cloudii> Project manager can be anyone but does not have mod rights

16:40 <&DarkoNeko> Translation project leader sounds better to me

16:40 <&DarkoNeko> it's more self explanatory

16:40 <+Lord-Simon> ^

16:40 < cloudii> Project Leader?

16:40 < Misogi> Nah, I disagree.

16:40 <&DarkoNeko> project can be understood as the wiki as a whjole

16:40 < krytyk> Project bancho

16:41 < rock96> ...cult leader...

16:41 < Cthaeh> +1 project leader

16:41 <+Lord-Simon> nani ?

16:41 < hayashi> head translator

16:41 < krytyk> ^

16:41 < Lery> Leader sounds grandly to me...

16:41 < hayashi> would be simplier

16:41 < Kira0802> no

16:41 <+Lord-Simon> no

16:41 <&DarkoNeko> hmm

16:41 < Kira0802> head translator != project leader

16:41 <+Lord-Simon> hayashi, no

16:41 < cloudii> We have situations like Log Horizon

16:41 < Kira0802> see campione.

16:41 < cloudii> where the head translator isn't even on the wiki

16:41 <&DarkoNeko> head translator aslo has a feel of "above translators", but not related to a project in particular

16:41 < Misogi> "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager" ; "Project Adminstrator -> Supervisor in charge"

16:42 <+Lord-Simon> Misogi +1

16:42 <&DarkoNeko> urg, my poor head XD

16:42 < cloudii> Misogi -1, I'm sorry xD

16:42 < Kira0802> Who's that "Supervisor in charge"?

16:42 < Kira0802> Wiki sup?

16:42 < hayashi> wiki supers

16:42 <+Lord-Simon> remove the " in charge"

16:42 < cloudii> Prefer Kira's, "Wiki Supervisor"

16:42 < Misogi> I don't like putting "wiki" on a project.

16:42 <&DarkoNeko> wiki supervisor doesn't sound local to a translation project at all

16:42 < Misogi> post*

16:42 < rock96> Maybe get rid of Project Administrators entirely? 'Cept for special cases like Haganai

16:42 < Kira0802> ...Supervisor then?

16:42 <+Lord-Simon> Ok, let's do the following

16:43 < Kira0802> Just remove the "wiki" part

16:43 < Misogi> Ok then. Supervisor is enough.

16:43 < Vallor> 'Supervisor' is good

16:43 < cloudii> Alright, now Misogi +1

16:43 < cloudii> <3

16:43 <+Lord-Simon> as of now, no project has any "Project Adminstrator", not "Project Supervisor"

16:43 < rock96> Haganai?

16:43 < Kira0802> every project has a project admin

16:43 <&DarkoNeko> so, to have the def right : "supervisors are ... ?"

16:43 <+Lord-Simon> Create a name

16:43 <+Lord-Simon> and give it a meaning

16:43 < Kira0802> when it's blank, it's Onizuka-GTO by default

16:43 < Kira0802> lol

16:44 < Vallor> Supervisors are supervisors.

16:44 < cloudii> Well, http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3194

16:44 < Misogi> "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (anyone)" ; "Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above"

16:44 < cloudii> To represent Oni's voice

16:44 < cloudii> and TLG who is not here

16:44 < cloudii> they once spoke about this topic

16:44 <+Lord-Simon> So...

16:44 <&DarkoNeko> supervisor imply it doesn't need to have much hand in the making, i like that

16:44 <+Lord-Simon> Vote for Misogi's option ?: "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (anyone)" ; "Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above"

16:44 < cloudii> Yes

16:45 < krytyk> that should be okay.

16:45 < krytyk> yes

16:45 < Kira0802> Yea

16:45 < Lery> It's true that most project have an N/A as Project Admin / Supervisor currently...

16:45 < Vallor> Yeah

16:45 < Misogi> Yes (although I may not count)

16:45 < Lery> yes

16:45 < Cthaeh> yes, vote

16:45 <&DarkoNeko> i'd have preferred "translation project manager" for clarity, but I'll take that

16:45 < cloudii> Onizuka once voiced TLG's opinion that all the positions need to be filled

16:46 < cloudii> Okay, resolved?

16:46 < rock96> 'K, I think

16:46 < cloudii> Okay, so backtrack to the last point

16:46 <+Lord-Simon> no

16:46 < cloudii> Project Manager inactivity?

16:46 <&DarkoNeko> so

16:46 <&DarkoNeko> wait

16:46 <+Lord-Simon> ^

16:46 <&DarkoNeko> Project Manager, does he need to be one of rhe translators ?

16:46 < Kira0802> No,

16:46 < rock96> Not really?

16:46 <+Lord-Simon> no

16:46 -!- coldacid [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki

16:46 < Lery> No

16:46 < cloudii> usually, but doesn't have to be

16:46 <&DarkoNeko> that sounds a bit weird

16:46 < Misogi> No, but it'd be better.

16:46 < Kira0802> It's not.

16:47 < Misogi> It can be an editor.

16:47 < Kira0802> An editor can do the job.

16:47 < cloudii> should be the most invested individual in the project

16:47 < Misogi> Or someone else more experienced on BT.

16:47 < Lery> Well, Project Manager should be able to use the wiki correctly and to take decision when it's needed, that's it.

16:47 < Vallor> Why an editor wouldn't have th rights to be a project manager...?

16:47 <&DarkoNeko> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Talk:Meeting:March302014#project_leading_and_supervisions <- is that formulation ok with everyone ?

16:47 < Vallor> the right*

16:47 < Misogi> He can.

16:47 < Vallor> That's what I'm saying

16:47 < Lery> except for the "fo" and the "z" :P

16:48 <&DarkoNeko> meh, correcting

16:48 <&DarkoNeko> "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (usually one of the translators or editors)"

16:48 <&DarkoNeko> "Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above)"

16:48 < rock96> No, don;t

16:48 < krytyk> well as long as its the highest authority when it comes to shape of the project

16:48 < krytyk> it can be either tl or editor

16:48 < rock96> We're a lazy bunch, alright

16:48 <+Lord-Simon> @DarkoNeko, yes.

16:48 <&DarkoNeko> tio be hoenst, supervisors don't *want* to have to manage local projects

16:48 < Misogi> The Manager can also be an experienced member of BT, if the TL is inexperienced with BT.

16:48 <&DarkoNeko> we're just there to be consulted in case of questions or problems

16:48 < Lery> That's the point in having Project Manager ;)

16:48 < Misogi> (Which is what I do.)

16:49 <+Lord-Simon> ^^^

16:49 < Lery> Well, Misogi, you're a supervisor too.

16:49 < cloudii> Are we resolved here?

16:49 < Kira0802> is this matter settled?

16:49 < Misogi> Yes.

16:49 <+Lord-Simon> Darko ?

16:50 < Lery> Yes

16:50 <+Lord-Simon> DarkoNeko, you there. Are you alive ?

16:50 * DarkoNeko breathes

16:50 <&DarkoNeko> yes, yes I am

16:50 <+Lord-Simon> Ok

16:50 <+Lord-Simon> then to the next topic

16:50 <+Lord-Simon> or poin

16:50 <+Lord-Simon> t

16:51 < cloudii> We never voted on Project Manager inactivity

16:51 <&DarkoNeko> yes, that's the next point

16:51 < Lery> Didn't we ?

16:51 <&DarkoNeko> nope

16:51 <+Lord-Simon> So, as darko has written:

16:51 <+Lord-Simon> If a Project Supervisor/Manager appears to be inactive

16:51 <+Lord-Simon> A translator may put in a request with Adminsitration, to be instated as the new Project Supervisor

16:51 < rock96> let's just make it that if no one can reach the Manager then we start the clock?

16:52 <+Lord-Simon> Define the time span

16:52 < Misogi> 6 months here.

16:52 <&DarkoNeko> do wer define a minimu activity ? it feels better to be cvague here

16:52 < rock96> In this case 6 months, yeah

16:52 < Lery> Yeah, that's fine so. Let's say 3 months

16:52 <&DarkoNeko> you don't want to wait 3 months to do soemthing because that guy isn't here

16:52 < cloudii> Um, I favor no time span on this

16:52 < Kira0802> off topic guys, but my IP has been blocked

16:52 < Lery> An active project has to be responsive...

16:52 < cloudii> Say for example Hatamaou gets a no-name Project Manager

16:52 <&DarkoNeko> most translators/editors would be gone after such a time

16:52 <+Lord-Simon> I'd go with the suggestion that rock96 made

16:52 < cloudii> but they vanish after 2 weeks

16:52 < Lery> Again ? You spammer :P

16:52 < cloudii> what then?

16:52 <+Lord-Simon> "let's just make it that if no one can reach the Manager then we start the clock?"

16:52 < Misogi> Hmm... perhaps we should describe the situation.

16:53 < cloudii> We never described the protocol for becoming Project Manager

16:53 < hayashi> managers should be reachable

16:53 < Kira0802> I'll go with 6 months

16:53 < hayashi> at least in a week

16:53 < Misogi> For inactive projects, no problems (it's usually above 6 months).

16:53 < hayashi> no one's going to wait 6 months

16:53 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, typically it's the translation project creator

16:53 -!- victorrama [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

16:53 < Misogi> For active projects, it can be less. 3 months.

16:53 < cloudii> �

16:53 < cloudii> exactly

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16:53 < cloudii> but that's why they tend to vanish

16:53 <&DarkoNeko> hm

16:53 < Kira0802> well

16:53 < cloudii> I think the Project Manager should be reachable within one week

16:54 < Vallor> if the project manager has disappeared since 6 months, any translator/editor of the project can become the new manager, with the consent of the supervisor

16:54 < cloudii> that's a very reasonable expectation

16:54 < rock96> Nah, for extrememly active projects we need to greatly reduce the time span...

16:54 <+Lord-Simon> Let's go with a week after the Manages is not reachable.

16:54 <&DarkoNeko> a fixed duration feels wrong here. We could add that if the project manager isn't available, anyone that is should be free to do his role in the interim

16:54 < Kira0802> a week for removal?

16:54 <+Lord-Simon> Week is a good time span. In general.

16:54 < Vallor> That was my point

16:54 < cloudii> Place the power in Administration for mo�aking case-by-case decisions

16:54 < Kira0802> hell, if I'M off to china for 3 months, what happens?

16:54 < cloudii> don't specify a week

16:54 < Cthaeh> opposed to week

16:54 <+Lord-Simon> A week for action

16:54 <&DarkoNeko> and only have a proper, official replacement after the duration of your choice (a month ? 3 months ?)

16:54 <&DarkoNeko> Kira0802, if you warned first it's different

16:54 < Lery> Let's say that two week of non declared hiatus is too much

16:54 <+Lord-Simon> After that, the supervisor has to take a look

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16:55 < Kira0802> I'll go with 10 days

16:55 < Lery> If you go to china for 3 months, if you're polite, you would warn first :P

16:55 < Misogi> We'll add that to the admin contact page.

16:55 <+Lord-Simon> ^^taht

16:55 < Misogi> I'll go with one month.

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16:55 <+Lord-Simon> Well, Misogi..

16:56 < Misogi> At least, in case of unexpected absences.

16:56 <+Lord-Simon> If I understand correctly

16:56 <&DarkoNeko> hmm, no matter the choice of duration, i propose to add "a project manager may designate someone as interim if he knows he'll be unavailble for a while"

16:56 <+Lord-Simon> it's all about the Translators and the Adminst

16:56 <+Lord-Simon> *managers

16:56 < Lery> As long as we distinguish the non-announced hiatus from the announced ones...

16:56 <+Lord-Simon> Ok, the situation:

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> There is a TL that is translating a novel

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> He requests an action or coordination from the manager

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> The manager does not respond

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> 1

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> day

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> 2 days

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> 3 days

16:57 <+Lord-Simon> and it goes on.

16:57 < Misogi> Ah, that ?

16:58 <+Lord-Simon> What is the limit, where you patience runs out.

16:58 < Misogi> Well, if it's the delay of contact, then 1-2 weeks will be good.

16:58 < cloudii> I'm in favor of 2 weeks

16:58 < Kira0802> 10 days

16:58 < cloudii> of unexcused absense

16:58 < hayashi> 1 week

16:58 < cloudii> "undeclared absense"

16:58 <&DarkoNeko> I propose to vote on one thing we probably all gagree with first

16:58 <&DarkoNeko> "If a project manager knows they'll be away for a while, they should designate a subtitute to take all decisions in their absence"

16:59 < cloudii> Sure

16:59 < hayashi> that I can agree with

16:59 <+Lord-Simon> yes

16:59 < rock96> no prob

16:59 <&DarkoNeko> one advance of saying that upfront is that everything else will necessary only apply to unannounced absences

16:59 < Vallor> of course

16:59 <&DarkoNeko> advantage*

16:59 < Lery> alright

16:59 * DarkoNeko add "the following only apply for unannounced absences"

17:00 < Misogi> Let's resume it.

17:00 <&DarkoNeko> ok

17:00 < hayashi> 1 week

17:00 < cloudii> Let's do nominations then votes?

17:00 <+Lord-Simon> ^

17:00 < Lery> Let's do it two weeks then.

17:00 < cloudii> kira nominated 10 days

17:00 < cloudii> any other nominations?

17:00 * DarkoNeko groans

17:01 < cloudii> 1). 1 week 2). 2 weeks 3). 10 days

17:01 < cloudii> vote

17:01 <&DarkoNeko> I don't like having precise times for that

17:01 < Lery> Anyway, after one week of waiting, I guess anybody would already have contacted the Supervisor...

17:01 <&DarkoNeko> it's... too bureaucratic

17:01 < cloudii> Are they contacting the supervisor to ask if they can fill the position?

17:01 < Lery> Let's say : as soon as it reaches an Admin's ear and that it has been more than 10 days, then...

17:01 <&DarkoNeko> "if a request to the project manager goes unanswered within a few days, then [contact the supervisor for opinion]/[do the thing]" ?

17:02 <+Lord-Simon> My suggestion is: 1) 1 week missing and the project staff complains, reconsider the management and talk to them. 2) 2 weeks of non-activity or response, the place will be changed with another person

17:02 <+Lord-Simon> ^^

17:02 <&DarkoNeko> hmm

17:02 <&DarkoNeko> so, after the first week, you designate a de facto substitute

17:02 <&DarkoNeko> and after [x] weeks, that person becomes the official project manager

17:02 <+Lord-Simon> Like that. To have at least a person who can do that

17:02 < Lery> Hell, that's a detail, don't we have tons of other matters to discuss ???

17:02 <+Lord-Simon> or answers in time

17:02 < cloudii> imo… that feels even more bureaucratic…. but whatever

17:03 <&DarkoNeko> well, that imply that proijects have more than one person XD

17:03 < Lery> That's fine so

17:03 < Lery> Let's go with it

17:03 < Misogi> Just tell that it's a case-by-case request.

17:03 < Lery> Vote

17:03 <&DarkoNeko> with it, which one lol

17:03 < Kira0802> let's leave it tp "1 week to 2 weeks"?

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17:03 < Kira0802> leave it to*

17:03 <&DarkoNeko> "after a while" ?

17:03 < Kira0802> we can redefine that

17:03 <+Lord-Simon> "1) 1 week missing and the project staff complains, reconsider the management and talk to them. 2) 2 weeks of non-activity or response, the place will be changed with another person"

17:03 <&DarkoNeko> hmm

17:03 <+Lord-Simon> "so, after the first week, you designate a de facto substitute"

17:03 <+Lord-Simon> "and after [x] weeks, that person becomes the official project manager"

17:04 < Kira0802> I can agree with that

17:04 < cloudii> 1 week missing de facto, 1 month official

17:04 <+Lord-Simon> also

17:04 <+Lord-Simon> " 17:02:05 Lord-Simon"

17:04 <+Lord-Simon> fauck

17:04 <+Lord-Simon> " "if a request to the project manager goes unanswered within a few days, then [contact the supervisor for opinion]/[do the thing]" ?"

17:04 < cloudii> Actually, I favor Simon's more xD

17:04 < Kira0802> consult others first, then do it

17:05 < Kira0802> if there's disagreement, go to supervisor

17:05 < cloudii> if a request to the project manager goes unanswered within a few days, then [contact the supervisor for opinion] and ask to become the de-facto project manager?

17:05 < cloudii> That's what it translates to for me

17:05 <&DarkoNeko> uh, let's do a mix, then

17:05 <&DarkoNeko> "1) if a project manager is missing (minimum a week, and decision to take) and the project staff complains, reconsider the management and talk to them. A subtitute manager is designated amongst the active member of the translation project"

17:05 <&DarkoNeko> "2) after [2 ?] weeks of non-activity or response, the subtitute officially become the new manager"

17:06 <&DarkoNeko> and ther are decisions to take*

17:06 <+Lord-Simon> VOTE

17:06 < Kira0802> Yea

17:06 <+Lord-Simon> yes

17:06 < Cthaeh> opposed

17:06 < cloudii> For point 2, can we specify duration?

17:06 < rock96> Just add case by case, and I'm fine with this.

17:06 < cloudii> I strongly just favor a case-by-case basis approach

17:06 <&DarkoNeko> rock96, anything we decide here isn't a rock hard rule, tho, we need flexibility

17:07 < Kira0802> ehe

17:07 < Lery> yeah

17:07 <&DarkoNeko> Cthaeh, why ?

17:07 < rock96> Which is why I propose this~

17:07 < Cthaeh> The danger I'm seeing here is that the translator forgets to say s/he will be gone for x-weeks, an editor (or translator with vastly different opinions) comes by and wants to make large changes, and then those large changes are made and the translator comes back after x weeks and is annoyed that something they considered important was completely changed

17:07 < Kira0802> rock 96, rock hard hehe

17:07 < Cthaeh> One example might be something like past/present tense

17:07 <&DarkoNeko> ..hmmm

17:07 < cloudii> I agree with Cthaeh

17:07 < Misogi> Same here.

17:07 < cloudii> which is why a case-by-case approach is much more flexible

17:07 < rock96> I wanna change the name *slams head into the wall*

17:07 < krytyk> so the editors who consult changes with translator exist?

17:07 < krytyk> i though thats just a myth

17:07 <&DarkoNeko> rhoo

17:07 < krytyk> thought*

17:08 * DarkoNeko pat pats krytyk

17:08 < Lery> @Cthaeh Special cases like BegginerXP and so one should always be treated as special anyway...

17:08 < cloudii> leaves it up to Administration to decide whether the replacement should occur

17:08 < Misogi> It exists.

17:08 < cloudii> It's a valid concern

17:08 <+Lord-Simon> My thought here was as a Manager and not a TL being a manager. Just the position of a Mangaer

17:08 < Kira0802> OK, so consultation first?

17:08 <&DarkoNeko> well, that's another case, then : "if the project manager has signifiant opposition with the other members of their project, what happens" ?

17:08 < cloudii> The Project Manager has the right to define all translation details for the project

17:08 <+Lord-Simon> That's a a given

17:08 < krytyk> manager being the authority on the project shape

17:09 < krytyk> stylistic wise

17:09 < cloudii> I would personally like to pile all of these issues onto the Supervisor to resolve XD

17:09 < cloudii> and handle it on a case-by-case basis

17:09 < Kira0802> fine

17:09 < krytyk> theres hardly anything else there, right

17:09 < cloudii> Supervisor can seek consultation from other supervisors

17:09 <+Lord-Simon> agree

17:09 * DarkoNeko groans at the potential issues

17:09 < cloudii> The caveat here is that Supervisors need to be named for all projects

17:10 < cloudii> *must

17:10 < cloudii> can no longer leave them blank

17:10 <+Lord-Simon> to the "and handle it on a case-by-case basis" and "Supervisor can seek consultation from other supervisors"

17:10 < cloudii> the supervisor doesn't have to be invested in the project. They're available for conflict resolution

17:10 <&DarkoNeko> all blanks are de facto affected to any and all supervisors

17:10 < krytyk> EVIL PLAN 1: name darko supervisor for all projects

17:10 <&DarkoNeko> i hate you

17:10 < krytyk> EVIL PLAN 1.1: Laugh

17:10 < Kira0802> if a project manager can't be trusted, s/he can't be a manager

17:11 < rock96> The outcome of EVIL PLAN: ban from wiki.

17:11 <&DarkoNeko> ok, let's add that, then

17:11 < cloudii> There are situations when we just have to be like nanodesuyo. If the manager is unsatisfactory (or generates a lot of resistence), the supervisor needs to stand up and say, sorry, but you can't be manager.

17:11 <&DarkoNeko> "the subtitute must be a trusted person from the project"

17:11 <&DarkoNeko> or something like that ?

17:11 <&DarkoNeko> as in, they chosoe it amongst themselves

17:11 < cloudii> Just let the supervisor decide......

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17:12 < krytyk> The substitute must be a person already involved in project, and a reliable authority concerning it.

17:12 <&DarkoNeko> and the supervisor only nod, or refuse if there's a blablant problem

17:12 < Misogi> "In cases of inactivity or management problems, a supervisor can be asked to name another Project Manager"

17:12 <&DarkoNeko> the supervisor doesn't know each and every problem on the project

17:12 < Cthaeh> agree that supervisor should consult someone who is/has been active on the project in the case that a project manager change request is made

17:12 < krytyk> o/ kuro-chan

17:12 < cloudii> Misogi +1

17:12 <&DarkoNeko> we're outsider, if there's an annoying person we'll probably don't know until it's too late

17:12 < Vallor> Misogi: +1

17:12 < cloudii> the supervisor should consult with the entire project team though

17:12 < Lery> Let's say : the subsitute should be DarkoNeko, who will decide after studying the case who could take the lead if the real Manager were to really go MIA

17:12 < Misogi> Of course.

17:12 < Kira0802> Misogi: +1

17:12 < cloudii> but we can expect the supervisor to give an unbiased opinion

17:12 < Cthaeh> cloud put it better

17:13 <&DarkoNeko> ...tho, in my opinion, the manager should be someone people of his project trusts

17:13 <&DarkoNeko> you can't do a collaborative project with people you hate, it just doesn't work

17:13 < Kira0802> yeah, he can be sacked, i'm ok with that

17:13 <+Lord-Simon> ^

17:13 < cloudii> personal conflicts are included with "management problems"

17:13 < Misogi> "In cases of inactivity or management problems, the project staff can ask the Supervisor to statute on that case"

17:14 < Vallor> cloudii: +1

17:14 < hayashi> cool

17:14 <&DarkoNeko> Misogi, that's kind of a given already