Okay, seriously, we were trying to brainstorm potential new projects earlier and a few of us agree that the Wiki page is a train wreck. I've said it before and it bears repeating: Making the page look decent and organized will help people take it more seriously, which will make it easier for us to attract new contributors.
Basically the only reason anybody shows up is because Haruhi is insanely popular. You know that's the truth...
And so, I would like to suggest a few organizational improvements... Starting with the main menu on the left.
Under "Navigation," remove "Current events." The blank page is a spam magnet and the site isn't updated often enough that any event would ever be current. Not that we have events either that I've noticed...
Consider adding a "Staff" link here instead, where you can list all of the supervisors etc. in a more detailed fashion.
Under "Current Projects," collapse Suzumiya Haruhi into ONE link instead of three. Link to the Spanish and French versions from the landing page instead, where it would actually make sense.
Remove the "Gaijin-San" link. Not only does the link mean absolutely nothing to anyone other than a handful of Baka-Tsuki regulars, but there is an entire category listed right underneath it. (It's also painfully stupid, but we've already had a topic about that which went absolutely nowhere...)
Going one level deeper... The "Format/Style guideline" is very specific to the Suzumiya Haruhi series right now. I would recommend making a dedicated format guideline page for each project and linking to it from that project's landing page. Replace the current guideline page with a generic guide that applies to the whole site, including talk pages (eg how to discuss translation issues and how to create lists of citations)
The "Registration Pages" link really does nothing as-is. Are we using the same registration method for all projects (register chapter-per-translator)? In either case this section might be better titles "Contribution Guidelines" and the page reformatted accordingly.
Beyond this, I would like to see standardizing of the project landing pages in terms of format: Short intro paragraph, table of contents, list of contributors (translators and editors), actual list of translated pages, and updates at the BOTTOM since they are rarely of any importance. Important stuff can be stuck at the very top of the page for as long as it's relevant.
Standardizing for citations. As a personal preference, I'd like to see citations link to a dedicated "Footnotes" page for each chapter (or the whole volume/project divided into chapters). This page would contain a brief explanation of the footnote and then an external link if one is required. The purpose of this is to collect all of the information in one source. Putting external links inside the translation itself creates a break in flow, since the user leaves baka-tsuki.net entirely if they click on it. Also, having a brief paragraph of footnote on the wiki eliminates any problems of external pages moving or changing.
Removing citations from the talk pages would also help reduce the clutter.
*deep breath*
Okay, that's about it for now. I would gladly draft up the guidelines and such that I mentioned above providing my efforts won't be in vain. I'm willing to discuss any of these points as well, including alternative suggestions. Whatever, it just needs to be cleaned up and maintained better.
=Smidge=
Wiki page layout issues
Moderators: thelastguardian, Fringe Security Bureau, Senior Editors, Senior Translators, Alt. Language Translator/Editor, Executive Council, Project Translators, Project Editors
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HolyCow
- I.D.S.E Humanoid Interface [LSB]
- Posts: 2538
- Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm
- Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
- Location: Hinamizawa
To add insult to the injury, we have broken links everywhere on the page >.<
I suggest Kara no Kyoukai be given its own link in the 'current projects' instead of classifying it under 'Gaijin-san!'. I think the disclaimer on the main page is sufficient to let anyone know that we didn't do the first few chapters.
As for citations, I usually just link them into the talk/discussion page, under translator's notes.
I would like to help, but unfortunately I'm a total braindead when it comes to the wiki (codes etc), so I'm sorry I can't help.
I suggest Kara no Kyoukai be given its own link in the 'current projects' instead of classifying it under 'Gaijin-san!'. I think the disclaimer on the main page is sufficient to let anyone know that we didn't do the first few chapters.
As for citations, I usually just link them into the talk/discussion page, under translator's notes.
I would like to help, but unfortunately I'm a total braindead when it comes to the wiki (codes etc), so I'm sorry I can't help.
/me claws out throat and dies
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Symphonia
- Astral Realm
I agree entirely with most of those suggestions. Regardless of how many post on the forums, I know that many, many fans do read the Haruhi translations in particular and a bit of organization would never hurt. Not many novel translation teams are as dedicated as Baka-Tsuki, it has every reason to be proud of itself and show it.
The only suggestion I can add on top of my head is that rather than just having a link to the Spanish and French translation on the main Suzumiya Haruhi landing page, perhaps consider creating a "Non-English Projects" sort of sub section too? At the moment it isn't too clear that "Versión en Español" and "Version Française" even refer to the Haruhi novels at all. I noticed how well the Spanish translation was coming along in particular so...
Maybe even have a link to that Vietnamese version.
The only suggestion I can add on top of my head is that rather than just having a link to the Spanish and French translation on the main Suzumiya Haruhi landing page, perhaps consider creating a "Non-English Projects" sort of sub section too? At the moment it isn't too clear that "Versión en Español" and "Version Française" even refer to the Haruhi novels at all. I noticed how well the Spanish translation was coming along in particular so...
Maybe even have a link to that Vietnamese version.
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onizuka-gto
- Editor-in-Chief
- Posts: 4840
- Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 9:02 pm
- Favourite Light Novel: Suzumiya Haruhi
Mahouka koukou no Rettousei
No Game No Life
Mushoku Tensei
Mother of Learning - Location: N.E.E.T Federation
- Contact:
"Gaijin-san!"
will be resolved by Tuesday 8pm.
As for the other points, if you draw up a guideline draft, and post it here so that others can read it, perhaps even a poll, then we will see how well it is welcomed.
The wiki has been more or less left to evolve as it can, but I do agree in some points that it more or less needs to organised into something more.....manageable.
But I'll be cautious to implement anything at such short notice.
Give this a minimum of a month to be fully discuss before any major changes to the Sidebar or Main page.
While the Big Boss will allow you to modify it, I doubt he wish to see any radical changes over night.
And be sure to include the Wiki Admins who will be able to put your suggestion into practice.
will be resolved by Tuesday 8pm.
As for the other points, if you draw up a guideline draft, and post it here so that others can read it, perhaps even a poll, then we will see how well it is welcomed.
The wiki has been more or less left to evolve as it can, but I do agree in some points that it more or less needs to organised into something more.....manageable.
But I'll be cautious to implement anything at such short notice.
Give this a minimum of a month to be fully discuss before any major changes to the Sidebar or Main page.
While the Big Boss will allow you to modify it, I doubt he wish to see any radical changes over night.
And be sure to include the Wiki Admins who will be able to put your suggestion into practice.
Last edited by onizuka-gto on Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck."
@Onizukademongto
@Onizukademongto
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Smidge204
- Astral Realm
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Nutcase
- Astral Realm
This issue is interesting to me on some levels.
I don't care too much about the Wiki structure per se - it's is good enough for my purposes, so I ignore most of the issues you raise, Smidge. However, if I bother to look at your issues critically, I more or less see what you point at. I know that this is not unlike the way most readers react to the great majority of my editing. Your issues are probably more consequential as they are at the front end, where potential participants are most easily deterred or diverted.
Some projects are not efficiently dealt with by a committee process. Or rather by the free-for-all model of the committee process. For example, I recall standing around with three other people in a supermarket during a camping trip pit stop, debating for an absurd length of time about whether we should get a loaf of sourdough, whole wheat or rye bread. Nobody had a strong opinion, so we dithered.
Cutting to the chase, I eventually settled on the "coordinator-consultant" model for flexible team organization out of a "committee" of peers. A "coordinator" assumes/is given appropriate authority/responsibility for a more or less clearly bounded module. The coordinator at his or her discretion works with consultants drawn from the "committee". This discretion includes the option of designating a consultant as the coordinator on a submodule within the overall module. This principle of delegation can extend as many layers as makes sense for the overall project. In principle, a high level coordinator can be a low level consultant. In principle, a coordinator isn't obliged to consult, just to get the job done.
This model simply idealizes and articulates what I noticed to be actually happening in effective group processes. It's main use is in protecting effective group processes from the "painful stupidity" that often results from either rigid hierarchy or simplistic egalitarianism.
This is only tangentially relevant, but I thought you might be interested.
Nutcase
I don't care too much about the Wiki structure per se - it's is good enough for my purposes, so I ignore most of the issues you raise, Smidge. However, if I bother to look at your issues critically, I more or less see what you point at. I know that this is not unlike the way most readers react to the great majority of my editing. Your issues are probably more consequential as they are at the front end, where potential participants are most easily deterred or diverted.
Some projects are not efficiently dealt with by a committee process. Or rather by the free-for-all model of the committee process. For example, I recall standing around with three other people in a supermarket during a camping trip pit stop, debating for an absurd length of time about whether we should get a loaf of sourdough, whole wheat or rye bread. Nobody had a strong opinion, so we dithered.
Cutting to the chase, I eventually settled on the "coordinator-consultant" model for flexible team organization out of a "committee" of peers. A "coordinator" assumes/is given appropriate authority/responsibility for a more or less clearly bounded module. The coordinator at his or her discretion works with consultants drawn from the "committee". This discretion includes the option of designating a consultant as the coordinator on a submodule within the overall module. This principle of delegation can extend as many layers as makes sense for the overall project. In principle, a high level coordinator can be a low level consultant. In principle, a coordinator isn't obliged to consult, just to get the job done.
This model simply idealizes and articulates what I noticed to be actually happening in effective group processes. It's main use is in protecting effective group processes from the "painful stupidity" that often results from either rigid hierarchy or simplistic egalitarianism.
This is only tangentially relevant, but I thought you might be interested.
Nutcase
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Smidge204
- Astral Realm
While we're all waiting for me to draft up some guidelines, let's indulge Nutcase's post. There already seems to be a heirarchy in the process. I suppose the formation of a heirarchy is natural for humans...
Supervisors > Translators > Editors > Everyone else
In general, I've noticed that each level voluntarily consults the level above for guidance unless there is a clear direction to take. This is as it should be, IMHO.
But I don't think that's the actual issue here (Nutcase can correct me if I'm wrong) - it's that the higher levels rely far too much on the feedback from lower levels before taking any sort of action. Not that we should vilolate the sense of community of course, but not every little thing requires a concensus from the masses either.
Now the question... is there any sane way to codify scope of authority for each level? Perhaps an even better question: should it be done? I wouldn't want the project to grind to a halt under the weight of bureaucracy, but at the same time I think some minimal structure is still required.
=Smidge=
Supervisors > Translators > Editors > Everyone else
In general, I've noticed that each level voluntarily consults the level above for guidance unless there is a clear direction to take. This is as it should be, IMHO.
But I don't think that's the actual issue here (Nutcase can correct me if I'm wrong) - it's that the higher levels rely far too much on the feedback from lower levels before taking any sort of action. Not that we should vilolate the sense of community of course, but not every little thing requires a concensus from the masses either.
Now the question... is there any sane way to codify scope of authority for each level? Perhaps an even better question: should it be done? I wouldn't want the project to grind to a halt under the weight of bureaucracy, but at the same time I think some minimal structure is still required.
=Smidge=
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Nutcase
- Astral Realm
I could quibble about the translators being "over" editors in a strict sense of hierarchy, but that's beside the point.
we could imagine, purely as a thought experiment, ten people from the current cast - including nominal members from each of your hierarchy levels - coming together to do something different. How does such a group self-organize efficiently and effectively? One way or another, the collective will generally delegate overall planning and organization to a good organizer. Let's say the project naturally divides into three subprojects that can run in parallel. Whether the organizer manages all three branches concurrently or delegates is not the sort of thing that can be resolved at a distance without reference to the specifics of the project and the people. The coordinator-consultant framework allows for a very fluid approach to sorting these things out. In the translation context, I can imagine a good organizer at the head of such an endeavor with no translation skills but good editing skills. Such a person might be "above" a translator, assigning a project, and "below", helping to edit the translator's output.
But getting to the practical application here:
This is my experience with editing here. I knew going in that most people couldn't care less about what I wanted to do. However, it was very helpful to prove up front that I was responsive to feedback. Now I can be rather aggressive in my approach to the text without explicitly seeking permission all the time.
When it comes to your particular issue, I'd just hand you the keys and stand back - but that's just me. It's about the page structure, and who has the skills to opimize it, not a hierarchy issue. You've proven to me that you know what you are doing, and can concede a point. That mental reverse gear is important. So I'd just cut you some slack and see what happens. But that's also because I don't know or care much about that stuff.
Gee, I'm long-winded.
Nutcase
we could imagine, purely as a thought experiment, ten people from the current cast - including nominal members from each of your hierarchy levels - coming together to do something different. How does such a group self-organize efficiently and effectively? One way or another, the collective will generally delegate overall planning and organization to a good organizer. Let's say the project naturally divides into three subprojects that can run in parallel. Whether the organizer manages all three branches concurrently or delegates is not the sort of thing that can be resolved at a distance without reference to the specifics of the project and the people. The coordinator-consultant framework allows for a very fluid approach to sorting these things out. In the translation context, I can imagine a good organizer at the head of such an endeavor with no translation skills but good editing skills. Such a person might be "above" a translator, assigning a project, and "below", helping to edit the translator's output.
But getting to the practical application here:
Yes, that's a possible issue here. In the c-c framework, formal consensus is a means to the end of operational consensus. Sometimes glancing around the room, and, "Right. That's it then." Is the better way. Sometimes you just do it. The nature of main page construction is such that somebody needs to have sufficient authority and responsibility. Success includes getting sufficient buy-in, not aggravating people unnecessarily. However, sometimes that means not bugging them about stuff that they don't care about, or that they trust your judgment about.But I don't think that's the actual issue here (Nutcase can correct me if I'm wrong) - it's that the higher levels rely far too much on the feedback from lower levels before taking any sort of action. Not that we should vilolate the sense of community of course, but not every little thing requires a concensus from the masses either.
This is my experience with editing here. I knew going in that most people couldn't care less about what I wanted to do. However, it was very helpful to prove up front that I was responsive to feedback. Now I can be rather aggressive in my approach to the text without explicitly seeking permission all the time.
When it comes to your particular issue, I'd just hand you the keys and stand back - but that's just me. It's about the page structure, and who has the skills to opimize it, not a hierarchy issue. You've proven to me that you know what you are doing, and can concede a point. That mental reverse gear is important. So I'd just cut you some slack and see what happens. But that's also because I don't know or care much about that stuff.
Gee, I'm long-winded.
Nutcase
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onizuka-gto
- Editor-in-Chief
- Posts: 4840
- Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 9:02 pm
- Favourite Light Novel: Suzumiya Haruhi
Mahouka koukou no Rettousei
No Game No Life
Mushoku Tensei
Mother of Learning - Location: N.E.E.T Federation
- Contact:
Transparency.
That is all that is needed, with a clear line to provide discussion, if your idea is uncontested then you will know you have a silent approval.
Without discussion we will not be able to determine if this is the best method, or that readers will not be inconvenienced.
And finally that you have shown to the Big Boss that you have taken in consideration of the rest of those concern, and we have a record of such exchange on this forum.
Bureaucracy at it's finest.
That is all that is needed, with a clear line to provide discussion, if your idea is uncontested then you will know you have a silent approval.
Without discussion we will not be able to determine if this is the best method, or that readers will not be inconvenienced.
And finally that you have shown to the Big Boss that you have taken in consideration of the rest of those concern, and we have a record of such exchange on this forum.
Bureaucracy at it's finest.
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure.Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official test record, followed by death. Good luck."
@Onizukademongto
@Onizukademongto
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Nutcase
- Astral Realm
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Smidge204
- Astral Realm
Before we get too deep, I'd like to make myself a little clearer:
I am not proposing some revamping of the social structure. I am not challenging the way the project is run on any level. I think it works extremely well as it is.
All I'm proposing is a physical restructuring of the site itself. It's a mess to navigate and it just seems to come off as not having any structure.
So without further adieu, a first draft of a proposed Unified Format Guideline:
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... :Smidge204
The original guideline was very specific to SHnY, so I attempted to generalize it as much as possible while expanding it to cover more aspects of the "typical project". Criticism is welcomed.
=Smidge=
I am not proposing some revamping of the social structure. I am not challenging the way the project is run on any level. I think it works extremely well as it is.
All I'm proposing is a physical restructuring of the site itself. It's a mess to navigate and it just seems to come off as not having any structure.
So without further adieu, a first draft of a proposed Unified Format Guideline:
http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index ... :Smidge204
The original guideline was very specific to SHnY, so I attempted to generalize it as much as possible while expanding it to cover more aspects of the "typical project". Criticism is welcomed.
=Smidge=
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molitar
- Devoted Haruhiist
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:35 pm
- Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
- Location: Zephyrhills, FL
- Contact:
Smidge204, I was reading your proposed format guidelines and it does look good.
One modification I would like to see added to the proposal is a more uniform naming structure for the art. A good example of what I mean is in volume 1 we had the artwork named nicely cover page, inside flap, prologue flap, chapter 1, ect. But in volume 4 we had a naming structure like Sh_v04_illust03.jpg and I had to examine the graphic and read portions of the chapter to attempt to determine which chapter it was referencing.
I also really like the idea of a full text version link for two reasons 1. It makes my copying and pasting to word document easier and 2. It will make it easier for readers to be able to read the story.
It wasn't until I read your thread that I realized how confusing the layout currently is for readers it reminded me of the time I sent a friend the url for reading Suzumiya Haruhi and she emailed me back asking where can I read the books? Since it was so far down the page and not easily located past all the credits she didn't know where to read the actual translated story.
BTW Nice proposal, I can see that you put some thought into it
One modification I would like to see added to the proposal is a more uniform naming structure for the art. A good example of what I mean is in volume 1 we had the artwork named nicely cover page, inside flap, prologue flap, chapter 1, ect. But in volume 4 we had a naming structure like Sh_v04_illust03.jpg and I had to examine the graphic and read portions of the chapter to attempt to determine which chapter it was referencing.
I also really like the idea of a full text version link for two reasons 1. It makes my copying and pasting to word document easier and 2. It will make it easier for readers to be able to read the story.
It wasn't until I read your thread that I realized how confusing the layout currently is for readers it reminded me of the time I sent a friend the url for reading Suzumiya Haruhi and she emailed me back asking where can I read the books? Since it was so far down the page and not easily located past all the credits she didn't know where to read the actual translated story.
BTW Nice proposal, I can see that you put some thought into it
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Nutcase
- Astral Realm
Well, this does moot your opening salvo.
I wholeheartedly agree that the current social structure ain't broke and don't need fixing.
Naturally I have to consider how well my current approach to editing relates to your guidelines. I don't operate within a strict construal of them. Still, you've outlined a clear, workable default. It's a place to start and a point of reference.
You haven't addressed the aesthetic aspect of editing/translation. I think the aesthetic element in particular is and should be up for grabs between translators and editors. Basically, whoever can make it pretty should make it pretty, unless this somehow violates the character of the original text.
However, it is questionable whether this sort of consideration belongs in the guidelines. The editors are a small group, not stamped out with the same cookie cutter. Reasonable people in this context recognize guidelines as a place to start.
Nutcase
I wholeheartedly agree that the current social structure ain't broke and don't need fixing.
Naturally I have to consider how well my current approach to editing relates to your guidelines. I don't operate within a strict construal of them. Still, you've outlined a clear, workable default. It's a place to start and a point of reference.
You haven't addressed the aesthetic aspect of editing/translation. I think the aesthetic element in particular is and should be up for grabs between translators and editors. Basically, whoever can make it pretty should make it pretty, unless this somehow violates the character of the original text.
However, it is questionable whether this sort of consideration belongs in the guidelines. The editors are a small group, not stamped out with the same cookie cutter. Reasonable people in this context recognize guidelines as a place to start.
Nutcase
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HolyCow
- I.D.S.E Humanoid Interface [LSB]
- Posts: 2538
- Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:31 pm
- Favourite Light Novel: Ahouka!
- Location: Hinamizawa
I think it's safe to remove 'or sections'. It's somewhat misleading (sounds like you can do only a portion of a chapter) and confusing to new translators who may sign up/collaborate with us in the future.Smidge204 wrote:You are required to register which chapters or sections you wish to work on.
I really agree with this. There has been no specific rule for this, and the result is we have a whole plethora of methods employed to solve this (I put a link to the talk page under translator's notes, while some link directly to the English wiki entry. Footnotes have also been used in the past). I would like to see a guideline on this implemented. Nice guideline SmidgeSmidge204 wrote:Preferably, a new page for each Volume titled "Translator's Notes" should be created.
I wonder if its possible to put this elsewhere. It looks kinda... Ugly... on the main page >.< Maybe in the Guidelines?Onizuka-GTO wrote:If any user spots any activity from Translators not on the active list, please feel free to swap their status. Equally any Translators who has not displayed any activity for two month should be moved to the A.W.O.L status, at six months, M.I.A status, and finally at fourteen months they will be sadly moved to the K.I.A status. (R.I.P)
As for the hierarchy thingy, I always thought that Supervisors > All other staff. Translators and editors are equal IMO
/me claws out throat and dies
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Smidge204
- Astral Realm
This is a good point. I've tried to stick to a pattern myself just for my own sake (eg Sh_v05c02_01.jpg, Sh_v05c02_02.jpg...) but an informative naming convention would be useful to everyone. I'll add that in.molitar wrote: One modification I would like to see added to the proposal is a more uniform naming structure for the art. A good example of what I mean is in volume 1 we had the artwork named nicely cover page, inside flap, prologue flap, chapter 1, ect. But in volume 4 we had a naming structure like Sh_v04_illust03.jpg and I had to examine the graphic and read portions of the chapter to attempt to determine which chapter it was referencing.
Naming for the cover art/inserts is not as critical since they usually appear together anyway.
I was thinking about that as I wrote it... the wording is very heavy. But I figured it's easier to suggest it now remove than it would be to come up with it later. I'll remove it.HolyCow wrote:I think it's safe to remove 'or sections'. It's somewhat misleading (sounds like you can do only a portion of a chapter) and confusing to new translators who may sign up/collaborate with us in the future.
I think this would fit best under the "Project Overview" section. I'll add it in there and see how it flows.HolyCow wrote:(Re: active translators) I wonder if its possible to put this elsewhere. It looks kinda... Ugly... on the main page >.< Maybe in the Guidelines?
=Smidge=