High School DxD - Names and Terminology

[zzhk]

Code-Zero first used Tanninim, so everyone just went with it.

I guess it could be Tannin after all.

In Jewish folklore, there is a Tannin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin_(demon)
Interestingly, Tannin is sometimes associated with Tiamat, another dragon in DxD.

Apparently, in the Bible where the English word "dragon" was used, the original Hebrew used "tannin."

Tanninim, on the other hand, is a river in Israel.

*Edit:

Actually, scratch that... On further research, the Jewish section of English wikipedia article on "Dragon" gives:

In Jewish religious texts, the first mention of a dragon-like creature is in the Biblical works of Job (26:13), and Isaiah (27:1) where it is called Nachash Bare'ach, or a "Pole Serpent".[13] This is identified in the Midrash Rabba to Genesis 1:21 as Leviathan from the word Taninim (תנינים) "and God created the great sea-monsters."

Knowing no Hebrew, my guess is that "תנינים" has some strange pronunciation that can be rendered both as "Tannin" and "Taninim."

[Code-Zero]

Yeah I got Taninim's name from the dragon page on wiki. Luckily his name hasnt appeared on any of the translated part so we won't have to fix anything yet.
Though the romaji will be "Ta-nn-ni-nn".
So it might be better to end with "n" at the end then. Though it will become "Tannin" if we to put it closer to the Japanese one.
Which one do you guys want? I dont mind any.

[Misogi]

Tannin is close to the mythology and the romaji version, so we should use it.

[Code-Zero]

Alright. Tannin it is.
Need to change them now then.

[zzhk]

Well, since Ultimate Class devil Tannin only starts showing up in Volume 5, I don't think there's anything that needs to be changed in the existing translations. A few rare instances at most.

I'd like to repeat a question I asked earlier in the thread about the hierarchy of devil classes:

Rias' family status is something I'd like Code-Zero to confirm even though he did make that chart in the early days. The way "Ultimate Class" gets mentioned within the novel suggests that it is a single non-hereditary title. And Ise does mention that Tanninim is higher than Rias' family. If Ultimate Class had an internal hierarchy of titles, then what is Tanninim's specific title within Ultimate Class?

Since Ultimate Class is written literally as "most high class", there is a possibility that the original sentence meant that the titles of Maou, Great King, Arch Duke, Duke, etc are the highest classes rather than being ultimate. Also, Japanese can be quite vague in plurals sometimes.

Is there a particular passage explaining the ranks, or was it something from other materials like magazines?

[Code-Zero]

Well I just explain them by volumes.

In volume 1, Rias's family was mentioned to be a High-class devils and that their house has the title of Duke.

In volume 5, Tannin was introduced. He is a Ultimate-class devil, so he would be placed higher than Rias's household. But his title wasnt mentioned.

In volume 8 in Extra Life, the ranking was mentioned as below:
-The really important people and their titles: Maou, Great-King, Arch-Duke
-Then the peerage goes Duke, Prince, Marquess, Count, Viscount and Baron
-middle-class devils peerage are Barnet and Knight

In the manga it had a pyramid and put them like below:
-Ultimate-class: Maou, Great-King, Arch-Duke, Duke, Prince/Princess
-High-class: Marquess, Margrave, Viscount, Baron
And the manga also mentions that Rias is a High-class devil once again, but the title of Duke is in Ultimate-class devil column.

We know that there are only 4 Maou. And that only the head of Bael is the Great-King while the head of Agares is Arch-Duke.
Sairaorg is the next heir of Bael/Great-King so he would be taking the title of Great-King once he becomes the head.
So that would mean Rias's father is a Duke and he is an Ultimate-class devil if we use the ranking from manga. So he would be put on par with Tannin since they will both be Ultimate-class devil. Rias is still High-class devil but if she becomes the head of Gremory, she would take the title of Duke. Though Tannin pays respects to Rias calling her Ojou, and Rias casually calls him Tannin when their status should be other way around.

The only title of devils we so far know are the Gremory house, Bael and Agares. I'm not sure about other devils title since they weren't mentioned. Raiser's brother Ruval who had been in Top-10 before is still a High-class devil and he is rumored to get a promotion to a Ultimate-class devil.

But the ranking of title does go Ultimate>High>Med>Low in the LN. The manga also supports their ranking/level like that as well.
Anyway I just translated whatever Ishibumi wrote, but as you can see there are flaws in them. I will just leave it as it is to avoid even more confusion.

[zzhk]

Ah I see, so the novel hasn't spelled out what specific titles belong to Ultimate Class, and the diagram comes from the manga.

Thanks!

*Edit:

Also about the translation name for Sekiryuutei and Hakuryuukou.
I used "Red Dragon Emperor" for the translated name of Sekiryuutei on volume 1.
But in volume 12, one of the title is called "The Emperor of Bust Dragon". This will be the official English name for "Chichiryuutei" since the author written it in English himself.
Then Sekiryuutei would become "The Emperor of Red Dragon", while Hakuryuukou will become "The Emperor of White Dragon".
Then Great Red will be "The God-Emperor of True-Red Dragon".

Actually, I've been thinking about these titles that the author provides in English or furigana...
Should we adjust them a little if they sound too awkward?

"Red Dragon Emperor" and "White Dragon Emperor" simply flow a lot better than "The Emperor of Red/White Dragon."
In that vein, would "Bust Dragon Emperor" be acceptable?

And then there are the Gremory ladies:
紅髪の滅殺姫（べにがみのルイン・プリンセス）
Rias is the "Crimson-haired Ruin Princess" which is acceptable, but it does sound a bit too much like "Ruined Princess."
"Crimson-haired Princess of Ruin" sounds slightly better, but I guess it's better to keep it in form with "Crimson Bust Princess."

亜麻髪の絶滅淑女（あまがみのマダム・ザ・エクスティンクト）
Her mother, Venerana Bael-Gremory, is the "Flaxen-haired Madame the Extinct."
"The Extinct" just sounds bad -- it sounds like she died, rather than dishing out the extinction.
Adjusting it to "Flaxen-haired Madame of Extinction" would probably be better.

銀髪の殲滅女王（ぎんぱつのクィーン・オブ・デイバウア）
As for Grayfia, Sirzechs' Ultimate Queen, we get "Silver-haired Queen of Devour" (or something sounding like that).
Would it be acceptable to take the kanji instead and settle with "Silver-haired Queen of Annihilation"?

What does everyone think?

[Hiro Hayase]

Ah I see, so the novel hasn't spelled out what specific titles belong to Ultimate Class, and the diagram comes from the manga.

Thanks!

*Edit:

Also about the translation name for Sekiryuutei and Hakuryuukou.
I used "Red Dragon Emperor" for the translated name of Sekiryuutei on volume 1.
But in volume 12, one of the title is called "The Emperor of Bust Dragon". This will be the official English name for "Chichiryuutei" since the author written it in English himself.
Then Sekiryuutei would become "The Emperor of Red Dragon", while Hakuryuukou will become "The Emperor of White Dragon".
Then Great Red will be "The God-Emperor of True-Red Dragon".

Actually, I've been thinking about these titles that the author provides in English or furigana...
Should we adjust them a little if they sound too awkward?

"Red Dragon Emperor" and "White Dragon Emperor" simply flow a lot better than "The Emperor of Red/White Dragon."
In that vein, would "Bust Dragon Emperor" be acceptable?

And then there are the Gremory ladies:
紅髪の滅殺姫（べにがみのルイン・プリンセス）
Rias is the "Crimson-haired Ruin Princess" which is acceptable, but it does sound a bit too much like "Ruined Princess."
"Crimson-haired Princess of Ruin" sounds slightly better, but I guess it's better to keep it in form with "Crimson Bust Princess."

亜麻髪の絶滅淑女（あまがみのマダム・ザ・エクスティンクト）
Her mother, Venerana Bael-Gremory, is the "Flaxen-haired Madame the Extinct."
"The Extinct" just sounds bad -- it sounds like she died, rather than dishing out the extinction.
Adjusting it to "Flaxen-haired Madame of Extinction" would probably be better.

銀髪の殲滅女王（ぎんぱつのクィーン・オブ・デイバウア）
As for Grayfia, Sirzechs' Ultimate Queen, we get "Silver-haired Queen of Devour" (or something sounding like that).
Would it be acceptable to take the kanji instead and settle with "Silver-haired Queen of Annihilation"?

What does everyone think?

I like Flaxen-haired Madame of Extinction and Silver-haired Queen of Annihilation. These sound more acceptable than what we have now, we should probably do this case-by-case whenever something like this occurs, where sometimes the English transliterated name sounds weird to use in the novel for english readers.

Red/White Emperor Dragon sound slightly better than the Emperor of Red/White Dragon for the LN, but Emperor of Red/White Dragon suggest that they are the emperor's among Red/White dragons or the top dogs. It shouldn't be too much of a problem for us since we're using the Japanese name for these two terms. Silver-haired Queen of Devourer sounds like Grayfia has a black hole for her stomach lol.

We could change "Crimson Bust Princess" into "Princess of Crimson Bust" if we go down that route... since it seems many of the titles in DxD have "of" in them.
For example, DxD or Dragon of Dragon, which in this case would mean that Great Red is the strongest or the true dragon among dragons. I think you guys get where I'm going with this... I hope.

Edit: Did we reach a consensus with Sirzechs and Grayfia's son? Go with Milikas Gremory, then?

[zzhk]

A previous discussion on Animesuki ended up with the conclusion it would be best to leave Mirikyasu Gremory (Sirzechs' son) untranslated until a good reference was found (maybe some kind of Gundam hybrid name, like Milliardo Peacecraft plus something, the same way that Falbium Asmodeus is Falcon G + Dendrobium.)

It looks like Eternal Dreamer decided on using "Milikas" though.

[Code-Zero]

Yeah lets go with Sekiryuutei and Hakuryuukou for their names. That would be easier.


For names we possibly cant translate, just like zzhk said lets go with romaji.

[Hiro Hayase]

I really think we should stop giving these bulky descriptions under the illustrations and just keep the illustration thumbnail, most of the times the descriptions underneath are unnecessary or way too bulky with words.

I propose the following:

1. Keeping the illustrations thumbnails by itself, without any descriptions or bulky quotes underneath whatsoever.

or

2. Illustration thumbnail, but instead of quotes we just illustrate who the person or people in the illustration are.


What do you guys think? The pdf version won't have these descriptions underneath the illustrations anyway.

[Code-Zero]

We could have it with no-quotes then. That will be much easier.

So we will do
1. Keeping the illustrations thumbnails by itself, without any descriptions or bulky quotes underneath whatsoever.

[Misogi]

I really think we should stop giving these bulky descriptions under the illustrations and just keep the illustration thumbnail, most of the times the descriptions underneath are unnecessary or way too bulky with words.

I propose the following:
1. Keeping the illustrations thumbnails by itself, without any descriptions or bulky quotes underneath whatsoever.
or
2. Illustration thumbnail, but instead of quotes we just illustrate who the person or people in the illustration are. [...]

We could have it with no-quotes then. That will be much easier.
So we will do
1. Keeping the illustrations thumbnails by itself, without any descriptions or bulky quotes underneath whatsoever.

We should remove them, if the illustrations are next to the right passage. But if there are illustrations with new characters we can't easily guess the name, or special pages which aren't illustrations, then we can use 2.
Or, we can apply 2. in the Novel Illustrations pages (it's what I did).

[Vaelis]

Personally I'm against any text under the illustrations. There isn't any in the raw.
Are English readers so stupid that they need description or quote when Japanese readers don't?

[Misogi]

Personally I'm against any text under the illustrations. There isn't any in the raw.
Are English readers so stupid that they need description or quote when Japanese readers don't?

I understand. My answer to the second question : it can be true. Mainly about some characters.
But we can remove all the texts, unless there is a really good reason to let them, like when the same question is repeated about one of the illustrations.