Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

[duncan]

I really don't know about the proper use of all the pronouns. I just remembered that in my college classes, my professor didn't like watakushi because she said it was too effeminate. Also, we were taught to use watashi as the general use of I, but I guess it could be effeminate for younger boys.

You were boys on the verge of manhood, so she wasn't sure what names you should give yourself. The problem is that she didn't explain that quandary to you, probably because it was too difficult to explain. Trying to get an explanation of this sort of thing from a Japanese person is like pulling teeth;) But here is my simple summary, mostly male-oriented:

Young men should use "boku". They can also use "ore".

Young women should use "watashi" or "atashi" Some of them use "boku" and they get bullied for their trouble.

Older men should use "watashi". In really formal situations they might use "watakushi." They can also use "ore" if they feel like bragging, or "boku" if they are feeling humble. My correspondent in Osaka yells at me because I tend to use "ore" and "boku"... what can I say... I'm a musician, so I am eternally young .

Girls tend to refer to themselves in the third person until about middle school. Japanese boys also do this, but they are expected to stop doing it by the time they enter kindergarten, if not earlier.

[Macko Darlack]

really amazing and interesting this japan culture... everyday i get more in love with it.. surely this background info and base will help a lot when attending classes damn!! a month and a half for vacations...!

Older men should use "watashi". In really formal situations they might use "watakushi." They can also use "ore" if they feel like bragging, or "boku" if they are feeling humble. My correspondent in Osaka yells at me because I tend to use "ore" and "boku"... what can I say... I'm a musician, so I am eternally young .

so that means japanese people correct foreign speakers when they do freely-speaking?? I mean, you can feel young and use boku and ore, but is it not well seen/heard?? that young/old aging is taken mature-ly or physically??

[salv87]

hmm.. returning to the copulas.
Is there any way to determine for sure that it is not necessary in this particular sentence thus it's not a copula but rather emphasises politeness, etc?

ok, speaking of pronouns - how about looking at we, they et.
so it would be made by adding -tachi, right?
watashi-tachi, anata-tachi (anata-gata if I remember correctly)

but what I wanted to ask is: watashitachi, bokutachi, oretachi..
is the use aproximately the same? that is if you're a young lad then it's normal to use bokutachi, hmm.. saw in an anime (probably not a very good reference) that ore-tachi is just a casual form of watashi-tachi so it was used by everybody among friends..

[Trabius]

hmm.. returning to the copulas.
Is there any way to determine for sure that it is not necessary in this particular sentence thus it's not a copula but rather emphasises politeness, etc?

Basically, the い adjectives and verbs don't need a copula to form a sentence because they act on their own, while a noun or na adjective won't. Desu is a copula when it is necessary to bridge the subject with the inactive noun/adjective. So adding desu to the plain い adjective is like conjugating a plain verb into masu form; it is still a sentence even without desu, but changing it makes it more formal.

ok, speaking of pronouns - how about looking at we, they et.
so it would be made by adding -tachi, right?
watashi-tachi, anata-tachi (anata-gata if I remember correctly)

but what I wanted to ask is: watashitachi, bokutachi, oretachi..
is the use aproximately the same? that is if you're a young lad then it's normal to use bokutachi, hmm.. saw in an anime (probably not a very good reference) that ore-tachi is just a casual form of watashi-tachi so it was used by everybody among friends..

The tachi doesn't affect the formality all that much (it might be a little formal?), so if you normally use boku then you would use bokutachi to indicate your group. Using boku should be fine, but I still don't think you should use ore unless you're really familiar with the other party and want to be really informal. I think it's more natural to stick to watashi(formal) and boku(casual). Maybe bokura if you want to refer to your group with a little more informality.

I really don't know about the proper use of all the pronouns. I just remembered that in my college classes, my professor didn't like watakushi because she said it was too effeminate. Also, we were taught to use watashi as the general use of I, but I guess it could be effeminate for younger boys.

You were boys on the verge of manhood, so she wasn't sure what names you should give yourself. The problem is that she didn't explain that quandary to you, probably because it was too difficult to explain. Trying to get an explanation of this sort of thing from a Japanese person is like pulling teeth;)

I might have been unclear, but I meant she didn't like to use watakushi herself. If it's used by males, it would probably be (like you said) in really formal situations, but I doubt it would hurt to stick with watashi. As the classroom is a formal setting and we used watashi for politeness, I'd say it's a rather general purpose pronoun for mid-level formality. While watashi is softer, it doesn't really have the overtly feminine tones of say, atashi. But in a casual setting, I'd agree that using boku would be better than watashi.

Side note: I added particles to the intro, but I'd appreciate feedback since I only did a brief overview rather than an in-depth analysis.

[elkin]

Holy moly, this thread sure has become very long in a very short period of time.

Anyway, you've done a great job in the introduction-- there's just the right balance of stuff for beginners without becoming too intricate. A small niggle is that you haven't included an example as to how to use 'mo'? Looking forward to the verbs section.

As an aside, haven't seen 'ore-tachi' used very much... most of the time I hear 'ore-ra'. '-tachi' is more polite, so for it to be paired up with the very casual 'ore' seems rather odd.

[salv87]

hmm.. never seen the -ra variant at all. gotta remeber it

[Macko Darlack]

yes!! more to learn! now I'm practicing as much as homeworks let me... thanks gaain, Trabius

[Trabius]

yes!! more to learn! now I'm practicing as much as homeworks let me... thanks gaain, Trabius

No problem, it's been fun to put together so far. I'm a little worried I'm making it too simple though.

Also, I'm not sure about the verbs. I want to keep it simple and build up, but I'm also trying to keep relevant info together. Another thing, are you familiar with the ichidan/godan classification system? Since there are basic rules, would one or two examples of each type of conjugation be enough? And should I include a list of basic verbs? I might need to make a chart or something.

[Macko Darlack]

guess you are talking to me in japanese... i heard about that... ichidan have a base of conjugation, soft verbs (?), -eru & -iru... yodan 4 conjugation forms, strong (?), -u... both regulars. that i got from my textbook. i didn't really know, but since i looked it up, it's kinda easy now. a chart i already have... maybe some other eager to learn do not... but i'm more concerned about the usage and tenses of verbs, potencial verbs, and that stuff

as for me, the basis in here is: u keep the root and in order to change the verb, u change the termination -ru (ichidan) and -u (yodan) for another one... but no description about 4 conjugations of yodan, though...

regards!!

[salv87]

first - question: a bit more info on the "noun modifier" mentioned in the の section. I understood most of it, jsut those 2 words left a blank in the understanding.

okay, since I'm interested in this too, I'll also share my oppinion.
So far this has been giving a good reference. Just think what you actually want to do. remember that if you're aiming at beginners, then it can never be too easy, since there are boun to be people who don't grasp the meaning or use of a specific word/copula etc.

I understand most of it, but it still hasn't settled down in my memory, since to actually remember this, I have to use it a bit ^_^
Not having studied english grammar from 5th or 6th grade, I'm sometimes getting confused by the terminology (like transitive verbs), but that's not a big problem so far, I still carry out what need to be understood..

as for the "ichidan/godan classification system" - maybe it's just me, but it doesn't really ring a bell. So it's up to you to decide how precice to make it.

PS. I've just begun studying, and so far I'm studying from a book that isn't packed with grammar (at least now). It's more like a word/word use kind of book.
I'll have to ask Krikit if there is much info on grammar later on.

[Macko Darlack]

transitive verbs are those who always need a direct complement (direct object) and almot alawys can form passive voice (ex. eat, have, etc) Intransitive verbs have a whole meaning and need no complement (ex. disappear).

and what did you mean with ichidan-godan matter, salv87?? and the book you mention is minna no nihongo?? may I pm you bout that?

regards!

[Trabius]

transitive verbs are those who always need a direct complement (direct object) and almot alawys can form passive voice (ex. eat, have, etc) Intransitive verbs have a whole meaning and need no complement (ex. disappear).

Yeah, that's a good description of transitive/intransitive. I just got around to putting that part up actually.

first - question: a bit more info on the "noun modifier" mentioned in the の section. I understood most of it, jsut those 2 words left a blank in the understanding.

Basically, a noun modifier is a phrase that defines a noun. As in, "The book [that was lying on the desk] was old.". So the part in brackets is affecting the book, defining it as "lying on the desk".

About the ichidan/godan system, it's basically a way to distinguish two groups of verbs (one that tends to end in る and another that pretty much includes every other verb.

[Macko Darlack]

both ichi and go are regular, rn't they? the definition i got of them is good??

and, a "noun modifier" is not an "adjective clause"?, that modifies the noun phrase with a small sentence (clause) within the main sentence. it's the result of 'joining' two sentences.

The book [that was lying on the desk] was old.

• The book was old.
  The book was lying on the desk.

that if i remember well my english grammar lessons... and sorry if not very clear...

c'ya!

[salv87]

transitive verbs are those who always need a direct complement (direct object) and almot alawys can form passive voice (ex. eat, have, etc) Intransitive verbs have a whole meaning and need no complement (ex. disappear).

and what did you mean with ichidan-godan matter, salv87?? and the book you mention is minna no nihongo?? may I pm you bout that?

regards!

aha, thx, just about got it on transitive verbs..

since when can you prohibit a person from sending a PM ? ^_^ yeah, it's minna no nihongo.
By the way, talking with the person I got it from, he says that there will be more gramatics-related stuff, so hurray for future べんきょう。^_^

first - question: a bit more info on the "noun modifier" mentioned in the の section. I understood most of it, jsut those 2 words left a blank in the understanding.

Basically, a noun modifier is a phrase that defines a noun. As in, "The book [that was lying on the desk] was old.". So the part in brackets is affecting the book, defining it as "lying on the desk".

About the ichidan/godan system, it's basically a way to distinguish two groups of verbs (one that tends to end in る and another that pretty much includes every other verb.

thank's for clearing that out for me.. still got some idea loose, but they'll eventually settle down in the right places ^_^

hmm.. well, i'd appreciate a bit more info on those systems (at least a link if it's not too hard ^_^ ). On the other hand, you could emphasise on them a bit more in the verb section. Or is this section the next one you were going to put up?

the result of not studying grammar.. hmm.. or the lack of proper english lexicon which concerns these matters, maybe that would be the more correct way of putting it
still wondering how I got 94 out of 100 on my state-exam and manage not to make too much errors in my texts ^_^

anyway, I'll be looking forward to your help if questions arise.. よろしくおねがいします　^_^

[Trabius]

both ichi and go are regular, rn't they? the definition i got of them is good??

and, a "noun modifier" is not an "adjective clause"?, that modifies the noun phrase with a small sentence (clause) within the main sentence. it's the result of 'joining' two sentences.

The book [that was lying on the desk] was old.

• The book was old.
  The book was lying on the desk.

that if i remember well my english grammar lessons... and sorry if not very clear...

c'ya!

I've never heard of them referred to as soft/strong, but both ichidan/godan are regular like you said, although there are some verbs that fall under godan that are somewhat irregular, like 行く and ある. I'll be going over those next, but I think you've got the right explanation if I understand correctly.

A noun modifier is basically anything that describes a noun, including adjectives. So in the case above, the phrase is both a noun modifier and an adjective clause. I don't think about differentiating it like that because I learned to lump clauses under the general term 'noun modifier'. In a way, noun modifiers do combine two sentences, but I wouldn't always separate the two. Take this sentence for example.

赤いのが好きだよ。　(Akai no ga suki da yo.) [The one which is red is the one that I like]/[(That one is red)+(I like that one) "I do like the red one."

The noun modifier is a simple adjective, so while you can certainly consider it like joining two sentences, it's also okay to just think of "赤い" as describing "の" directly. の is basically a blank, making the noun modifier into a noun itself.

hmm.. well, i'd appreciate a bit more info on those systems (at least a link if it's not too hard ^_^ ). On the other hand, you could emphasise on them a bit more in the verb section. Or is this section the next one you were going to put up?

Well, I'll be discussing them more as I go over regular and irregular verbs next, but I'm not so sure I can explain the difference between u/ru verbs in a way that's easy to understand. I think it's something you just have to get used to over time. If you actually get used to hearing verbs spoken in both plain form and masu form, you'll usually remember which ones are ichidan and which ones are godan. I'll be including more examples of ru/u verbs as I go along, so hopefully it will become easier to understand once I show actual conjugation. If not, I'll try to go back in more detail.