Timezones Check In

[ainsoph9]

Well, Troy is not a bad place per se, at least when I was last there. I would prefer Troy over some of the other suburbs of Detroit.

[rpapo]

No, Troy's not bad at all. Software development remains a business that wants to project a slightly better image, so as to attract better workers, so even though I referred to them as "sweatshops", that's only referring to how it is in comparison to palaces like the Google headquarters in Silicon Valley. My office is not a bad place at all: they've even got a ping-pong table and a Wii in the breakroom, and free beverages. The things companies due to lure the younger (more energetic, cheaper) programmers . . .

[ainsoph9]

Wow. About the best I have ever seen a company provide for break room "services" is an exercise room and some vending machines with a TV. However, that might explain why some companies are having a harder time than need be, if they are spending their money on things like that instead of more important matters. Either way, I do not really care too much because it is their money.

[rpapo]

They do what they think they need to do. Compuware had a first-rate cafeteria, a huge fitness center and a child-care center. Most of that they added in the 1990s, when they needed something to entice the programmers to sign on with them. They still have those things out of inertia. To be fair, though, those "benefits" were not at all free. I've seen places out in the San Francisco Bay area that had catered lunches every day. Detroit is much more "working class", as you know already, and such things generally don't happen here. The closest things to that can be found in Ann Arbor, which to me is like a slice of California in Michigan. I don't mean that in an entirely complimentary way, though: Ann Arbor is a very strange place. Fun, but with strange people, almost from another planet.

[ainsoph9]

I have been to Ann Arbor and have avoided it for that very reason. Both Ann Arbor and Lansing are their own little worlds. For what you are describing, parts of Grand Rapids, Holland, and the west coast of Michigan have that feeling. Frankly, one of the biggest problems with Michigan is that the government and private institutions there are poorly run and mismanaged in general. The whole auto debacle proved that.

[rpapo]

Michigan got addicted to easy money from the auto industry, and it is going through withdrawal pains right now. The industry is recovering right now, but by it's very nature the recovery will be followed by another crash. Michigan is getting ready to fly a little bit again, which will make the next crash all the harder. The financial state of the USA as a whole isn't making it any easier, either.

Why don't I move? Simple: I have a good job not in the automotive sector, but my house's market value crashed with everybody else's. If I were to try and sell now, I would walk away with almost nothing to show for it, and would be faced with a new 20-30 year mortgage wherever I moved to. That's not something you want to do when you're already in your fifties.

[Mystes]

Just by curiosity, without any meaning of offending you, rpapo, or someone else, is the crime rate high in Michigan?

[rpapo]

With regards to the crime rate, Michigan isn't really much different from anywhere else. Most of the state is forest, lakes and farmland, and of course those areas are quiet. The crime rate anywhere in the United States is closely related to how crowded and how poor an area is. Since the most crowded, poorest areas are the older cities (not the business district, but the surrounding areas rather), that is where most of the crime is.

You can get easily a bad impression of the United States when you drive over from Canada, especially from Ontario, since the places where you enter the USA are older industrial towns, well past their prime. Canada sparkles by comparison.

In Michigan, that means that you really don't want to live in the cheaper parts of Detroit, Pontiac or Flint. The rest of the state isn't bad at all. Ann Arbor is a nice town to look at, but it's occupants are rather strange, mostly because it is a university town, slightly disconnected from the reality of normal life. That doesn't make the people dangerous. The dangers of that town are only the normal dangers that go with university towns, which mostly come from the students themselves.

[Mystes]

With regards to the crime rate, Michigan isn't really much different from anywhere else. Most of the state is forest, lakes and farmland, and of course those areas are quiet. The crime rate anywhere in the United States is closely related to how crowded and how poor an area is. Since the most crowded, poorest areas are the older cities (not the business district, but the surrounding areas rather), that is where most of the crime is.

You can get easily a bad impression of the United States when you drive over from Canada, especially from Ontario, since the places where you enter the USA are older industrial towns, well past their prime. Canada sparkles by comparison.

In Michigan, that means that you really don't want to live in the cheaper parts of Detroit, Pontiac or Flint. The rest of the state isn't bad at all. Ann Arbor is a nice town to look at, but it's occupants are rather strange, mostly because it is a university town, slightly disconnected from the reality of normal life. That doesn't make the people dangerous. The dangers of that town are only the normal dangers that go with university towns, which mostly come from the students themselves.

Michigan University doesn't have a bad reputation, from what I heard, so it's surprising that the threat comes from students. Also, there are some cities which loook a lot like the Canadian cities, like Buffalo, or Vermont.

Anyways, Quebec isn't much safer. Here, the bars open until 3 at morning, which is the only province in Canada which lets it. The Ontario guys often come here to party all night.

[rpapo]

Michigan University doesn't have a bad reputation, from what I heard, so it's surprising that the threat comes from students. Also, there are some cities which loook a lot like the Canadian cities, like Buffalo, or Vermont.

Michigan State University (East Lansing) has a bad reputation for drinking. The University of Michigan (Ann Arbor) is much better in that regard, but they are also home to the annual "Hash Bash". But when I say that the students bring the problems, I was only referring to the kinds of problems you get when you have many young people away from home (and the rules thereof), on their own, and still not entirely grown up. Some problems come from lack of money, but most problems come from stability not quite learned yet.

Anyways, Quebec aren't much safer. Here, the bars are open until 3 at morning, which is the only province in Canada which lets it. The Ontario guys often come here to party all night.

Didn't know about that. Bars and nightclubs close here at 2am. But then, we get (or used to get, before they tightened the border) a lot of Detroit kids going to Windsor to drink, since the legal drinking age in Canada is (or was) 19 rather than the 21 we have here.

[Mystes]

Didn't know about that. Bars and nightclubs close here at 2am. But then, we get (or used to get, before they tightened the border) a lot of Detroit kids going to Windsor to drink, since the legal drinking age in Canada is (or was) 19 rather than the 21 we have here.

Yeah, well, Detroit isn't too far from Windsor. I think you just need to cross the bridge.

Also, do you know in which category is University of Michigan good at? Because I only know their hockey team.

[rpapo]

Yeah, well, Detroit isn't too far from Windsor. I think you just need to cross the bridge.

It's one of the few places where you get to Canada by going south.

Also, do you know in which category is University of Michigan good at? Because I only know their hockey team.

They spend the largest amount of money on American Football, but their basketball program is well known too. I presumed they had a hockey team, but I know nothing about how good (or bad) they are doing.

[ainsoph9]

Academically, some say that the University of Michigan engineering and medical programs are good. I do not know about the latter, but I do know that the former is overrated heavily. The other things that it is notorious for is the Naked Mile, where the students streak for a mile, many of them getting arrested in the process. The problem with both University of Michigan and Michigan State University is that both of them have a reputation for being party and sports schools more than academically challenging schools. This is sad because both used to have much better academia a long time ago. This might have changed for the better, but that is kind of the reputation that they have obtained for themselves over the years I was living in Michigan.

Going back to the crime rate, the crime rate is high in Flint and Detroit, both of them being murder capitols of the country. To be honest, both of them relied on the auto industry too much, especially when it comes to how they interacted with the auto companies and the unions. The basic exchange went something like this:

Workers: "We want more benefits and better pay."

Union: "Give them more benefits and better pay, auto companies."

Auto companies: "Fine." *mismanagement happens on the side*

Workers and Union: "Yeah. We did a 1-up on the !$!#$@! auto companies."

Workers: "We want more benefits and better pay."

Union: "Give them more benefits and better pay, auto companies."

Auto companies: "Uh...you guys are not really earning it. Plus, we cannot really afford it. Actually, your performance is down..."

Workers and Union: "We are suing!!!"

Auto companies: "Go right ahead...we are leaving!!!"

Workers and Union: "Umm, crap...in hindsight, that was not so smart...brother, can you spare a dime?"

I know that is highly oversimplified, but the loss of jobs that resulted explains why much of Flint and Detroit are black holes of crime. I do not write what I wrote to point the finger at anyone because all sides really did a SNAFU. Oh well...

[rpapo]

There's even more to it, and it has to do with world economics and history. Detroit was the auto capital before World War II, and during the war the whites went off to fight and the blacks came up from the south for jobs. Racism kept the blacks out of the military in general, so they wound up (along with women) doing much of the manufacturing work.

After WW2, there were only two manufacturing economies left intact: a large one, the United States, and a much smaller one, Argentina. Anything either country could make could be sold, so the manufacturers found it easier to simply give in to the unions and pass the increased cost to the buyers. The buyers couldn't go anywhere else. This set a bad precedent in union relations which would come back to bite us much later.

The rest of the world didn't stand still, and eventually Germany and Japan (to name the two biggest only) were able to build things again, and they did it cheaper. All of a sudden U.S. manufacturers had competition again. The unions wouldn't give up any of their "hard earned" benefits, so those company's prices stayed high. Guess where the business went? Guess who started to hurt? Guess how many companies went under?

Michigan is one of the places hardest hit by this bit of history, but by no means the only place.

[onizuka-gto]

eh...My time zone is GMT+8. wait did i mention this already?