Meeting:April232016

April 23, 2016 - Baka-Tsuki Town Hall

The General Meeting will hold place in two sessions:

• Session 1: (4/23) Saturday 14:00 Greenwich Mean Time (UTC/GMT).
• Session 2: (4/24) Sunday 02:00 Greenwich Mean Time (UTC/GMT).

The discussion of the following topics will be held on the #baka-tsuki IRC channel, located at the Rizon Chat Network.

Using THIS LINK, you'll be redirected to the Rizon Chat, where you'll have to choose a name before connecting to the channel.

Meeting Summaries:

• Quick link to minutes (summary) of Saturday Session: [-pending-]
• Quick link to minutes (summary) of Sunday Session: [-pending-]

Meeting Full Transcripts:

• Quick link to transcript of Saturday Session: Saturday Session
• Quick link to transcript of Sunday Session: [-pending-]

Link to the 2014 meeting: Meeting:March302014

Topics

This google doc contain's Cloudii's present opinions, which will be used as a starting point for discussion.

Election Board Meeting

• Revisit and determine details on the eligibility of candidates and voters
• Settle the implementation specifics of the elections beginning on May 1st, 2016

Lower Hierarchy Restructuring

• Determine how many alt lang supervisors we need, senior editors, senior translators, etc.
• Allow wiki members to submit an application for positions of power during the election period
• Revisit how we can keep the sidebar up to date -- consider creating a dedicated position?

Charter of Guidance Simplification

• Aim to cut down the total length and complexity of the rules
• Revisit rules -- determine if they were being observed or ineffectual. Eliminate or modify rules that are inefficient.

Q&A on the Baka-Tsuki Server Move

• Answer questions and concerns from members

(pending -- if you have anything that you want to address, feel free to add it here.)

Question concerning DMCAs

Could it be possible to make a page detailing what was DMCA'd for each project? I'll take the example of Densetsu no Yūsha no Densetsu as it's difficult to understand what's going in there: full text links for the first series are still up, most chapters were however deleted while some others remain. For other volumes it's just the images... so, it's confusing. The translator seems to have stopped working on the second series after the strike, but an external translator picked it up. Now I wonder if it's allowed to let it continue, since the second series got at least some images removed. It would be great to have something clear and detailed, as to know what exactly is affected; if it's a series globally, just some chapters or volumes, the images, only the english project or all the languages. Thanks, RS (talk) 17:10, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Complete Log of the Meeting

Complete Log of the Saturday Session

[...] [09:58am] Cloudii: If you’re here for the meeting, check out this wiki page (and the google doc) https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016 [09:58am] Kira0802: Aren't we like 15:00 UTC now? [09:59am] Joay: closer to 1400 ... [09:59am] Kira0802: ... [09:59am] Altux: night 22.00 here [09:59am] Kira0802: I thought I was 45 minutes late... [09:59am] Teh_ping: .... [09:59am] Cloudii: Alrightie, let’s get started [09:59am] Teh_ping: Anyway, saw the agenda beforehand [09:59am] Kira0802: I blame daylight saving [09:59am] Kira0802: Go ahead [09:59am] Cloudii: Let’s start with election rules [10:00am] kiryuu joined the chat room. [10:00am] Cloudii: Any opinion on the eligibility of candidates [10:00am] Cloudii: for the elections that start on May 1st [10:00am] Kira0802: ? [10:00am] Joay: just two questions [10:00am] Cloudii: Any Wiki user that fulfills any one of the following criteria is eligible: [10:00am] Cloudii: Wiki user is in either the translator, editor, or supervisor usergroups [10:00am] Cloudii: Wiki user has made 500 or more contributions to Baka-Tsuki and has been a registered member for six months or greater [10:00am] Cloudii: (it’s in the google doc linked on the wiki page https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016) [10:00am] Joay: one, you have a list of eligible candidates and voters? [10:01am] Joay: two, what is the minimum voter turnout? [10:01am] Altux: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CC0g4XjcLEa4jhYws6JJYJFqF9InB-h8ZW1P0r6oXyQ/edit# [10:01am] Cloudii: it’s a self-nomination process, so candidate eligbility would be determined when they nominate themselves [10:01am] Cloudii: voter eligibility is any existing editor translator (which means they already have access to the admin forums) [10:02am] Altux: what is the >500 contribution? [10:02am] Cloudii: or someone on the wiki who requests access [10:02am] Kira0802: I believe it's 500 wiki edits [10:02am] Cloudii: @Altux you can look up the number of contributions you have, like this https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Altux [10:02am] Kira0802: Altux: as in 500 times you changed the wiki [10:03am] Teh_ping: It's our BakaTsuki500 [10:03am] Cloudii: minimum voter turnout is actually none, we don’t have much freedom here ;-; [10:03am] Cloudii: I’m not even sure what our population is [10:03am] Teh_ping: voting? [10:03am] Teh_ping: we talking about voting? [10:03am] hayashi: I'm here [10:04am] Cloudii: Any questions or objections to the candidate and voter eligbility? [10:04am] AliceNeo joined the chat room. [10:04am] Joay: i'm worried about the definition of wiki change ... [10:04am] Teh_ping: well, translator is obvious [10:05am] Kira0802: I think it's short for "non-official editors" [10:05am] Teh_ping: but for editors, how much wiki change is debatable [10:05am] Cloudii: yep [10:05am] Teh_ping: Image uploaders can count too, I guess [10:05am] Joay: like how big would be a change for it to count kind of question ... [10:05am] Cloudii: do people have a preferable definition? [10:05am] Kira0802: I don't have one [10:05am] Cloudii: *preferable alternative definition [10:05am] Teh_ping: obviously, we can't go about checking each editor's works one by one [10:05am] Kira0802: The point is to include regulars, is it not? [10:06am] Teh_ping: technically yeah [10:06am] hayashi: sorry Cloudii [10:06am] Cloudii: @Kira0802 yes, the point is to include editors who have made significant contributions/changes to the wiki [10:06am] Joay: talk pages are out of the question, right? [10:06am] hayashi: what was the agenda again? [10:06am] Teh_ping: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016 [10:06am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:April232016 [10:06am] Teh_ping: jinx [10:06am] Cloudii: [10:06am] Teh_ping: talk pages are out [10:06am] Teh_ping: ...and we need to filter them [10:06am] observer joined the chat room. [10:07am] Altux: more complete agenda : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CC0g4XjcLEa4jhYws6JJYJFqF9InB-h8ZW1P0r6oXyQ/edit# [10:07am] Teh_ping: Okay cloud, can we change it up a little? [10:07am] Cloudii: yep~ [10:07am] Teh_ping: for eligible translator [10:07am] Cloudii: what do you have on mind? [10:07am] Teh_ping: they must have at least 100kb worth of contribution to count [10:07am] XDDD joined the chat room. [10:07am] Teh_ping: ssry, 50 [10:07am] Joay: much better, IMO ... [10:07am] Teh_ping: 100kb is too much [10:08am] Kira0802: If your point was to specifically target editors, I'd rather go per number of chapters covered [10:08am] Cloudii: 50kb is reasonable that’s like a chapter or so [10:08am] Teh_ping: joay, 1kb of text is about 1.6k words, right? [10:08am] Kira0802: There's no point in making them change what they think do not need to be touched [10:08am] hayashi: ah ok [10:08am] AliceNeo left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:08am] hayashi: so we're voting on council stuff [10:08am] Kira0802: 50kb is pretty much a short chapter [10:08am] Teh_ping: so, 500kb? [10:08am] Cloudii: 50kb is fine imo [10:08am] aielarbalest joined the chat room. [10:09am] Cloudii: I think it shouldn’t be too hard for translators to become eligble [10:09am] Kira0802: Why not just say "one chapter" [10:09am] Joay: 1kb? that'll be about 4 sentences worth [10:09am] Teh_ping: ...realizes I've been off BT translating for so long [10:09am] Cloudii: if anything I think the elgibility should be easier for translators than editors, but that’s just my opinion [10:09am] Kira0802: Defining by kb is something unnecessarily technical [10:10am] Teh_ping: but I'm using my own example for this [10:10am] Cloudii: Okay translator definition is someone who has translated more than one chapter [10:10am] Teh_ping: one chapter, how long? [10:10am] Joay: tough to say [10:10am] Kira0802: Doesn't really matter [10:10am] Cloudii: I think it’s easier to keep things simple ;-; [10:10am] Kira0802: Most chapters are like 50kb+ [10:10am] Teh_ping: prologue, epilogues and afterword shouldn't count here [10:11am] Cloudii: quick vote: [10:11am] Cloudii: single chapter definition [10:11am] Cloudii: b) prologue epi definition (ping's) [10:11am] Joay: illustration annotations == prologue? background info == prologue? [10:11am] Cloudii: c) no definition on translators [10:12am] Cloudii: I don’t think illustrations or background info counts as a chapter [10:12am] Kira0802: I'm going to stick with our same definition for the translator user group [10:12am] Teh_ping: anything before what is called 'chapter 1' in text, I guess [10:12am] Cloudii: I’m with Kira0802 actually ;-; [10:12am] Teh_ping: what was the definition anyway? [10:12am] Kira0802: Which is one chapter [10:12am] Cloudii: the translator usergroup is literally determined by wiki supervisors [10:12am] Cloudii: if it looks like someone is a translator they’re a translator [10:12am] Cloudii: it’s easy to tell ;-; [10:13am] Teh_ping: but we don't have many supervisors T.T [10:13am] Kira0802: Kinda yeah. [10:13am] XDDD_ joined the chat room. [10:13am] Cloudii: we would have to give them permissions to access the forum admin board anyways [10:13am] XDDD left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:13am] Cloudii: In either case, I think it’s excessive to have an elaborate kb definition for translators [10:14am] Kira0802: There are supervisors, though the role is merely to accept people in the user group so far [10:14am] Teh_ping: ...actually, cloud, that definition was more for voting eligibility [10:15am] Cloudii: I’m writing directly into the doc for now [10:15am] Cloudii: any objections from here? [10:15am] Cloudii: I’ve put it in blue so the later session can have separate input too [10:15am] Kira0802: I see no problem with that. [10:16am] Cloudii: If we’re good here let’s move on? [10:16am] Joay: ok [10:16am] Cthaeh: In the final written guidelines, I'd have whatever metric we come up be listed as a guideline, and [10:16am] Cthaeh: include a note that editors with significant contributions that fall short numerically can still request access and be approved at supervisor discretion [10:16am] Cthaeh: quality of edits (or number of bytes changed) is highly variable depending [10:16am] Cloudii: I’m with Cthaeh [10:16am] Cthaeh: current definitions are fine by me [10:16am] Teh_ping: editor is the harder thing to define though [10:16am] Kira0802: Just go with number of chapters covered [10:16am] Cloudii: Anyhow, next item, nomination period for elections [10:16am] Teh_ping: gotcha [10:17am] Cloudii: Is it fine to have it on the wiki? [10:17am] Teh_ping: ...normally we go with forums [10:17am] Teh_ping: but with it easily spammed [10:17am] Cloudii: yeah, but I think the wiki is more… open [10:17am] Altux: why not the blog? [10:17am] Teh_ping: agreed [10:17am] Teh_ping: nobody uses the blog [10:17am] Cloudii: and I’d like to get in the habit of doing more things on the wiki [10:17am] Altux: facebook? [10:17am] Kira0802: Doesn't that mean you have to publicly vote? [10:18am] Cloudii: a lot of wiki users don’t use the forums (or facebook) [10:18am] Teh_ping: that's just chaos [10:18am] Cloudii: no, the voting is still happening on the forums [10:18am] Cloudii: but I’d like to have the nominations on the wiki [10:18am] Teh_ping: ah, okay [10:18am] Cloudii: any questions? [10:18am] Kira0802: I'm uncomfortable with public voting [10:18am] Teh_ping: add 'voting will be done on the forums' after the 'they like to the nomination page', cloud [10:18am] Cloudii: We’re not having public voting [10:19am] Teh_ping: we're just throwing names [10:19am] Kira0802: How do you set secret voting in the wiki? [10:19am] Teh_ping: on the admin forum? [10:19am] Cloudii: It’s in the administration forum board [10:19am] Cloudii: it’s our way of controlling it so only eligible voters can vote [10:19am] Cthaeh: nominations on wiki is fine [10:20am] Cloudii: If we’re good on this topic can we move on? [10:20am] Kira0802: Yeah [10:20am] Teh_ping: yep [10:20am] Cloudii: (if you have questions you’d like for the candidates, just make them and I’ll add them to the list) [10:20am] Cloudii: Election rules [10:20am] Cloudii: the key thing I wanted to add was no campaigning on the wiki [10:21am] Cloudii: other rules are more or less obvious [10:21am] Teh_ping: I'm not worried about the candidates campaigning [10:21am] Teh_ping: I'm more worried about people pushing for candidates campaigning [10:21am] Cloudii: I’d just like to make it a rule just in case… [10:21am] Kira0802: You can add a candidate sub in the admin group [10:22am] Cloudii: what do you mean Kira0802? [10:22am] Cthaeh: I'm worried about getting less than 5 nominees... [10:22am] Cloudii: haha Cthaeh [10:22am] Kira0802: Each topic is about one's candidature within a subsection of the admin board [10:22am] Teh_ping: I'm expecting 2... [10:22am] Cloudii: can we ammend the constitution right now so that if we have less than 5 nominees, the rest of the board can be appointed? [10:23am] Kira0802: Wait [10:23am] Kira0802: Why is there the need for 5 nominees when only 1 place is vacant [10:23am] Cthaeh: so Cthaeh can run away [10:23am] Teh_ping: are we reshuffling the board, or something? [10:23am] Cloudii: Some people may not want to run again [10:23am] • Teh_ping looks away [10:24am] Cloudii: it’s called democracy~ if people think you did bad then may not get elected again~ [10:24am] Cloudii: in either case, any additions to the election rules? [10:24am] Cloudii: if not, moving on [10:24am] Joay: 5 posts up for grabs in a general election ... [10:24am] Kira0802: I totally forgot it's been a whole year [10:24am] Kira0802: No [10:24am] Kira0802: Go on [10:24am] Teh_ping: sometimes it's not about doing bad, but rather who's forced to take up the position [10:25am] Cloudii: Alrightie, uh… this is something I should have done earlier, but we need to figure out which supervisors are still active/inactive [10:25am] Cloudii: What is a good number of supervisors to have overall? [10:25am] Cloudii: (non-alternative languages, that is) [10:25am] Teh_ping: 7 [10:25am] hayashi: 7 is quite a lot ping [10:25am] Cloudii: throw a number everyone~ [10:25am] Cthaeh: 15 [10:25am] Joay: one [10:25am] Cloudii: well, I actually think it’s nicer to have more [10:26am] Kira0802: 2-3 per language [10:26am] Teh_ping: right now, we have 147 main projects [10:26am] Cloudii: more supervisors = more people to edit the main page [10:26am] Teh_ping: some obviously way bigger than others [10:26am] hayashi: how many of those 147 are active though [10:26am] Teh_ping: and so many are hosted too [10:27am] Cloudii: Currently I’m leaning for like 2 per non-English language, and like 7 english [10:27am] Kira0802: Do you have a list of number of projects per language? [10:27am] Cloudii: 7-10 maybe english [10:27am] Joay: can we check the current supervisors' edit history? [10:27am] Cloudii: yep [10:27am] Kira0802: Yes. [10:27am] foxhunt_mobile joined the chat room. [10:28am] Cthaeh: Brazilian Portuguese 34-39 Czech 6 Filipino 6 French ~67 (Vaelis, Lery, Kira0802) German 16 (Daklor) Greek 4 Indonesian 46+ (Arczyx, Tony Yon) Italian 10 Lithuanian 6 Polish ~30 Russian 45+ (Sharkrahs) Spanish 45 (FNX, RedGlassesGirl(?)) Turkish 5 Vietnamese 30 [10:28am] Cloudii: so the current bid is 10 general supervisors? [10:28am] Cloudii: up or down? [10:28am] Cthaeh: formatting got messed up, but that's what it was a year ago [10:28am] Teh_ping: tbh, I'm thinking it'll be amazing if we can have more supervisors than the number of active chatters on this IRC [10:28am] AndChat-74900 joined the chat room. [10:28am] foxhunt_mobile left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [10:29am] Cloudii: In either case, what I was imagining was that there would be a supervisor application form [10:29am] Cloudii: would put this up concurently with elections [10:29am] Joay: one supervisor for 10 projects maybe? [10:29am] Cloudii: a supervisor wanna-be would fill out the form if they were interested [10:29am] Cloudii: Executive Council would look over later [10:29am] Cthaeh: we have 13 listed currently [10:29am] FoxhuntM left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:29am] Cloudii: a very easy~ form [10:29am] Cthaeh: do you mean 10 active? [10:29am] Cloudii: Cthaeh brings up a good point [10:29am] antihero joined the chat room. [10:29am] Cloudii: that means we can’t have less than 13 [10:29am] Kira0802: One per 10 project is good. [10:29am] Cloudii: unless we shrank for sure [10:29am] Teh_ping: sighs [10:30am] Cloudii: 1 supervisor or 10 projects [10:30am] Cloudii: I’m good with that [10:30am] Cloudii: *per [10:30am] Teh_ping: so, what are our popular projects? [10:30am] Kira0802: Well like 90% of the novels got nuked [10:30am] Teh_ping: I'm guessing one supervisor per active popular project [10:30am] Cloudii: I think active is good enough [10:30am] Kira0802: That's hard to define, ping [10:30am] Kira0802: And a hassle to manage [10:31am] Cloudii: wait, actually, that would bring us to less than 13 supervisors [10:31am] Teh_ping: one person manages zzhk's works, one person manages js06.exe works [10:31am] Kira0802: Are we talking about English only? [10:31am] Teh_ping: ...that's torture [10:31am] Cloudii: english only [10:31am] Cloudii: I think we’re in the present situation of the more people, the better [10:32am] antihero left the chat room. [10:32am] Cloudii: I’m thinking 1 supervisor per 10 full projects [10:32am] Cloudii: so 14.6 supervisors [10:32am] Cloudii: is the cap on general english supervisors [10:32am] Cloudii: realistically there will be less though [10:32am] Kira0802: How about 7 projects, one supervisor? [10:33am] Teh_ping: realistically, we have only 20 active projects or so [10:33am] AndChat-74900 left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:33am] Cloudii: (shhh I’m trying to pull more people into running BT) [10:33am] Cloudii: (ranks are like… the carrot...) [10:33am] Teh_ping: tbh, half of the projects are hosted, so they're their own admins, I guess [10:33am] Teh_ping: and supervisors [10:33am] Kira0802: We can just bundle inactive projects with the active ones when someone takes a supervising job [10:33am] Cloudii: Teh Ping does have a point [10:33am] Cloudii: well, we’re not dividing up projects though [10:34am] Cloudii: supervisors are there to hopefull do Cthaeh’s job [10:34am] Cthaeh: I don't personally think we need a ceiling, if you get qualified people interested, then sure they can be supervisors [10:34am] Teh_ping: just leave the inactive ones for the time being [10:34am] Cloudii: Cthaeh has a good point too...... [10:34am] Cthaeh: I don't think we'd run into issues of too many at the moment [10:34am] Kira0802: Hosted projects shouldn't mean they are their own supervisor though [10:34am] Teh_ping: we're beggars at this point, not choosers [10:34am] Cloudii: actually let’s just scrap all this about a cap [10:34am] Cloudii: [10:34am] Teh_ping: sighs [10:35am] Cloudii: I guess our priority is to find at least 1 per alternative language [10:35am] Joay: teaser projects == inactive project? [10:35am] Teh_ping: anyway, just get as many as we can [10:35am] Cloudii: no Joay [10:35am] Cloudii: but it was an approximation... [10:35am] Cloudii: the supervisors aren’t assigned to projects anyway [10:35am] Kira0802: I'm more interested in defining that the hell is a supervisor supposed to do [10:35am] Cloudii: their role is basically to patrol the wiki [10:35am] Cloudii: do Cthaeh’s job [10:35am] Cloudii: supervisor = BT moderator (on the wiki) [10:36am] Cloudii: ..the definition has changed over the years... [10:36am] Cthaeh: I don't do anything these days... so I'd hope for a little better [10:36am] Teh_ping: anyway cloud, let's just see what we can get first [10:36am] Cloudii: good, let’s move on [10:36am] Cloudii: Should we add more positions that people can apply to? [10:37am] Cloudii: e.g. more people to take himel’s job [10:37am] Kira0802: What else is there [10:37am] Cloudii: or blog manager [10:37am] Teh_ping: only one I can think of is image cleaner [10:37am] Cloudii: supervisor of audio projects… [10:37am] Teh_ping: how's the audio project going anyway? [10:37am] Cloudii: It died when Oni retired [10:37am] Kira0802: I want Himel to choose his people by himself [10:37am] Teh_ping: sigh [10:38am] Cloudii: well I guess we can inform Himel that then [10:38am] Kira0802: Rather than pushing something to him [10:38am] Cloudii: but the others? [10:38am] Kira0802: What's left? [10:38am] Cloudii: I think it might be nice to have a supervisor for OLNs and WNs [10:38am] hayashi: probably the election [10:38am] hayashi: hopefully we will have a trump candidate [10:38am] Teh_ping: that can be for a general supervisor to handle, I guess [10:38am] hayashi: to liven up the proceedings [10:38am] • Teh_ping chops Hayashi down [10:38am] Joay: *shudder* [10:39am] Cloudii: if the responsibilit y isn’t assigned, it’s never going to be done [10:39am] Cthaeh: *whistles* [10:39am] Teh_ping: forests are meant to be cleared [10:39am] Teh_ping: anyway, back on point [10:39am] Cloudii: in either case, in the WN policy last year, the point was that somebody would review WN to see if they’re “good enough” eligible to be presented to the Executive council [10:39am] meganeshounen joined the chat room. [10:39am] Cloudii: same with OLNs [10:39am] Cloudii: (that “somebody” never got determined xD) [10:40am] Kira0802: Just let the supervisor board do that work [10:40am] Kira0802: Instead of having a single one do it [10:40am] Teh_ping: WN will need more than 1 supervisor, I think [10:40am] Cloudii: the supervisors are lazy, everyone knows that~ [10:40am] Kira0802: WN influx stopped [10:40am] Teh_ping: so adding more lazy bums to lazy bums, yeah that'll work [10:40am] Cloudii: we actually don’t get very many people interested in hosting their WN anymore [10:40am] Teh_ping: yeah, donations and such [10:40am] Cloudii: I think one will suffice [10:41am] Cloudii: imo the best person to do it is someone interested in doing it [10:41am] Cloudii: like if they like WNs or if they like OLNs [10:41am] Flutz joined the chat room. [10:41am] Cloudii: so should we open these “extra” positions? [10:41am] Kira0802: Do we have someone like that [10:42am] Joay: must be a wattpad fan if they're into WN or OLNs ... [10:42am] Cloudii: have someone like what? [10:42am] Cthaeh: sure, if you want to organize the recruiting for it [10:42am] Joay: just guessing ... [10:42am] Kira0802: Interested in all OLNs and who's active [10:42am] Cloudii: haha Cthaeh [10:42am] Kira0802: But open them, there's nothing to lose here anyway [10:42am] Cloudii: are we good here or shall we move on? [10:42am] Kira0802: Except for WNs [10:43am] Kira0802: Yeah, we're good [10:43am] Teh_ping: we good [10:43am] Cloudii: Next item is make rules more concise…. this is more of a personal goal really [10:43am] Cloudii: but there’s a lot of stuff in the rules like “inform the administration help page” that isn’t really meaningful… [10:43am] Teh_ping: and more effective [10:43am] Cloudii: any opinions? [10:43am] Kira0802: Someone link me the rules [10:44am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Baka-Tsuki:Rules [10:44am] Teh_ping: well, times have changed [10:44am] Cloudii: the external contributor guidelines are a mess [10:44am] Teh_ping: but a common theme amongst readers is tl:dr [10:44am] Cloudii: new project startup guidelines are too long [10:44am] Cloudii: and a pain [10:44am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Baka-Tsuki:New_Project_Startup_Guidelines [10:44am] Victorrama joined the chat room. [10:44am] Kira0802: Someone with an IQ of 50 can understand them though [10:44am] Victorrama: Hola [10:44am] Cthaeh: shorter rules would probably be good, changing that is more of a volunteer thing than a delegate thing though [10:44am] Kira0802: They are long but not incomprehensible [10:45am] Teh_ping: ...cloud, you created that, didn't you? [10:45am] Cloudii: yep [10:45am] Teh_ping: sighz [10:45am] Cloudii: everything is my fault [10:45am] erebea_v2 joined the chat room. [10:45am] Cloudii: (but secretly it’s all Kira’s fault) [10:45am] Teh_ping: ...except for the project abandonment [10:45am] Kira0802: Hi Vic [10:45am] Teh_ping: now that's my fault [10:45am] Teh_ping is now known as Teh_ping. [10:45am] Cloudii: project abandonment is sensitive so I won’t touch that [10:45am] Cloudii: I really just want to cut down on the project startup rules [10:45am] Kira0802: I can volunteer to go over them [10:45am] Cloudii: and external contributor guidelines [10:45am] Teh_ping: I want to revise the abandonment one [10:46am] Cloudii: Teh_ping go on? [10:46am] Cloudii: lol Ping I thought you were a precious random person [10:46am] Teh_ping: for the abandonment policy, the process is still kind of vague to me [10:46am] Teh_ping: it's my next project on BT [10:46am] Teh_ping: there's a reason for that [10:47am] Cloudii: Ping, run for executive council and then work with the exec council to change it [10:47am] Teh_ping: don't wanna [10:47am] Cloudii: I feel like this is too sensitive of an area for someone to do unilaterally [10:47am] SoraSky joined the chat room. [10:47am] Cloudii: you can also edit it yourself and present it to the executive council [10:47am] Teh_ping is now known as Teh. [10:47am] Cloudii: draft up a new version and present it [10:47am] Cloudii: that works too [10:47am] Kira0802: I can just add a tl;dr in the top of new project guidelines [10:48am] Teh is now known as Teh_ping. [10:48am] Cloudii: So I guess Kira0802 and me will work on simplifying the new project and external contributor guidelines [10:48am] Cloudii: Teh Ping will work on the abandonment [10:48am] Cloudii: but draft it up in the talk page, not on the actual page [10:48am] Victorrama: Any short summary? I came in kinda late [10:48am] Teh_ping: need me to vet through the guidelines? [10:48am] Cloudii: like copy paste everything and post your new version on the talk page [10:48am] Kira0802: I want to redefine the whole external guidelines though [10:49am] Cloudii: then PM the executive council [10:49am] Cloudii: okay Kira0802 [10:49am] Kira0802: Nothing much Vic [10:49am] Cloudii: Just whatever you guys do, don’t edit it directly ;-; [10:49am] Teh_ping: on the talk page please [10:49am] Cloudii: Do it on the talk page or somewhere else first please [10:49am] LeinadDan joined the chat room. [10:49am] Kira0802: Cloud, I'll just post a draft proposal in the admin forum [10:49am] Cloudii: That works too [10:49am] Cloudii: Are we good? Moving on? [10:49am] Teh_ping: yep [10:49am] Kira0802: Go ahead [10:50am] Cloudii: @Victorroma the transcript will be posted [10:50am] Cloudii: Any outstanding things that need to be updated on the main page? [10:50am] Cloudii: lol Ping is correcting my spelling [10:50am] Cloudii: If not, then there’s just the Q&A on the server move [10:50am] Victorrama: Okay [10:50am] Cloudii: or Q&A on anything really [10:51am] Teh_ping: tbh, I'm a little curious on something [10:51am] Kira0802: Can someone please let people with supervisor rights to edit the sidebar? [10:51am] Cloudii: can you edit the sidebar Kira0802? [10:51am] Teh_ping: is the current/upcoming anime section really up-to-date? [10:51am] Teh_ping: so far, it's for admin only [10:51am] Kira0802: I don't recall being able to do so [10:51am] Cloudii: can you try right now [10:51am] Cloudii: ? [10:52am] Kira0802: <-on my phone [10:52am] Cloudii: the last I checked, it’s been changed [10:52am] Teh_ping: by zzhk, I believe? [10:52am] Teh_ping: yep [10:52am] Cthaeh: random topic that KLS asked me to bring up in his absence: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=55&p=270906#p270906 [10:52am] Cthaeh: http://kltranslate.herokuapp.com/ [10:53am] Cthaeh: He wanted to check to make sure that wouldn't be considered MTL [10:53am] Cloudii: Is there any non administrator here that is a supervisor? [10:53am] Cloudii: I’ll need to read it in a bit [10:53am] Cloudii: Victorrama are you here? [10:53am] Cthaeh: it doesn't look like that would be [10:53am] Victorrama: Yes [10:53am] Cloudii: can you try editting the sidebar? [10:53am] Cthaeh: you feed it JP, and it lists the dictionary definitions of everything [10:53am] Cloudii: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar [10:53am] Teh_ping: only for sysop [10:54am] Teh_ping: ‎[edit=sysop] (indefinite)‎[move=sysop] [10:54am] Victorrama: Nope [10:54am] Victorrama: I can't [10:54am] Cloudii: [10:54am] Cloudii: I want more people to have sidebar editing rights.... [10:54am] puj joined the chat room. [10:55am] Cthaeh: for the main page, even if you don't want to change user rights, you can define a template that is supervisor editable for the sections that need to be change frequently [10:55am] Cthaeh: sidebar editing writes are linked to a lot of other pages too [10:55am] Cloudii: Victor can you change the main page? [10:55am] Victorrama: Which? [10:55am] Cloudii: we trained the include with the sidebar before but it didn’t work [10:55am] Cloudii: the Baka-Tsuki main page [10:56am] Victorrama: A sec [10:56am] Kira0802: I can [10:56am] Kira0802: I think [10:56am] Cthaeh: (it's a wiki infrastructure page or some such thing, so I think it needs to be changed in group rights definitions) [10:56am] Victorrama: Yes i can [10:57am] Cloudii: well… it’d be nice if supervisors could edit the sidebar in the future [10:57am] Teh_ping: it's admin only for now [10:57am] Cloudii: I guess we’ll have to ask Lery or Simon if they can figure something about it [10:57am] Teh_ping: which means zzhk is at admin level too [10:57am] Cloudii: yep [10:57am] Kira0802: But yeah, all this time I have never been able to add project to the sidebar and it pissed me off [10:57am] Teh_ping: ...either way, or I'll have to come back and do the sidebar edits [10:57am] Teh_ping: sighz [10:57am] Cloudii: About KLS’s thing... [10:57am] Cloudii: I’m biased [10:58am] Cloudii: I’m all for it really, because I really like active members ;-; [10:58am] sovyat left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:58am] Teh_ping: I like that idea too [10:58am] Joay: is that based on wwwjdic? [10:58am] Cloudii: it is very close to quasi-machine translation though ;-; [10:58am] Teh_ping: text glossing tool [10:58am] Teh_ping: so, pretty much yeah [10:58am] Victorrama: KLS..? [10:58am] Cloudii: KLSylph [10:58am] Kira0802: KLS' parser should be a tool, not a mean [10:58am] Teh_ping: https://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=55&p=270906#p270906 [10:59am] Teh_ping: I like the initiative, but it's as Kira0802 said [10:59am] Cloudii: well, I think we can allow it [10:59am] Cloudii: the rules still stands that we don’t allow MTLing [10:59am] XDDD_ left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [10:59am] Kira0802: There's no point in dismissing tools through which one could get help from, although the basic idea is that you don't TL the whole thing from a parser [10:59am] Teh_ping: but we can have the thing on the sidebar though [10:59am] Cloudii: so there’s this fuzzy gray area where the tools usage is still allowed [10:59am] Teh_ping: we still have BakaReader EX out there [10:59am] Cloudii: seems like we have a consensus [11:00am] Teh_ping: let's include it [11:00am] Cloudii: Oh and I’d like to link novelupdates.com on the main page too [11:00am] Cloudii: any other topics people would like to discuss? [11:00am] Cloudii: otherwise this session is just about done~ [11:00am] hyddty joined the chat room. [11:00am] Cthaeh: 1 coming [11:01am] Victorrama: That tool... [11:01am] Joay: novelupdates.com --> quick links ? [11:01am] Teh_ping: hey guys, if any of you are shy about raising something, just message any one of us [11:01am] Victorrama: I suppose we can treat it like jisho [11:01am] Kira0802: I think novelupdates and recent changes to the general scene should push BT to a more TL-focused group [11:01am] Cloudii: agreed Kira0802 [11:01am] Kira0802: As in [11:01am] Victorrama: How is BT relationship with mangaupdates? [11:01am] Cloudii: we don’t have one [11:02am] Cloudii: @victorrama [11:02am] Victorrama: I say tray it as same way then [11:02am] Teh_ping: what about novelupdates? [11:02am] Kira0802: Less stuff about "promoting novels" and more focus in projects [11:02am] Cloudii: it’s just a useful thing I’ve been using lately [11:02am] Cloudii: We have aho updates linked for instance ;-; [11:02am] TrippleD left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed) [11:02am] Teh_ping: well, it certainly ain't useful in informing me about which hellping projects are updated [11:02am] Cthaeh: I'll wait a moment for novel updates discussion [11:02am] Kira0802: Isn't aho updates the same as novelupdates? [11:03am] Cloudii: novelupdates is more like mangaupdates [11:03am] Victorrama: I say ignore it since we ignore mangaupdates...? And aho too [11:03am] BitterChu2 joined the chat room. [11:03am] Cloudii: Well, if it were up to me, I’d actually like to assign someone to do himel’s job on novelupdates or mangaupdates [11:03am] Teh_ping: ...which is himel's job [11:03am] Cloudii: himel only does it on facebook [11:04am] Kira0802: His is more a [11:04am] Teh_ping: basically, he'll be the 'promotion team leader' [11:04am] Cloudii: (and twitter) [11:04am] Kira0802: Promotion+update one [11:04am] Kira0802: Rather than just update [11:04am] Teh_ping: he also does some mangaupdates too, if I remember [11:04am] Kira0802: Just let him form his own team [11:04am] Cloudii: okeee [11:04am] Teh_ping: tbh, I'll prefer to have the readers promote what they like [11:04am] Cloudii: Cthaeh you were saying? [11:04am] Teh_ping: novel updates? [11:05am] Judith joined the chat room. [11:05am] Cthaeh: I've been mulling the idea of moving pdfs and such from forums to wiki, having a separate "PDF" page for each progect (ie Rokujouma:PDF). [11:05am] Cthaeh: One one hand, this would make it much easier to share and manage. On the other hand, making pdfs more widespread hurts my position on licensing a bit. [11:05am] Cthaeh: I do think moving it could be an opportunity to increase activity overall. It'd be a lot easier to find the pdf you're looking for (and delete the page once it's licensed), compared to having to search forum posts 1 by 1. [11:05am] Cthaeh: So I'm curious what people think of the tradeoffs there. [11:06am] Kira0802: Do that [11:06am] Cloudii: I favor this, so long as you find the people to implement the changes [11:06am] Victorrama: Who'd be responsible for making and checking it..? [11:06am] Cloudii: it’s a lot of work up front [11:06am] Victorrama: The PDFs.. [11:06am] Cthaeh: People make pdfs already [11:06am] Victorrama: Coz there will be lots of version poping [11:06am] Cloudii: do you want a separate subboard for PDFs? [11:06am] Kira0802: It lets the community check it too [11:06am] Cthaeh: they just share them in forum posts [11:06am] Victorrama: Dont we have the PDF thread in it? [11:07am] Kira0802: I think you can make them a section just above "Volume 1" and under "Registration" though [11:07am] Cloudii: My assumption is to update the forum rules so that users should not post PDF links in ordinary threads… only in the PDF subboard [11:07am] Cthaeh: Yeah, I'd open up a forum topic in the pdf subforum to see if the current people who make/share pdfs would want [11:07am] Cthaeh: I want a separate page for pdfs so it can be deleted cleanly on licensing [11:07am] Cloudii: I would say go for it Cthaeh [11:07am] Cloudii: I’ll separate the Appreciate and PDF subboards for you if you want? [11:07am] hayashi: I'm not keen on making pdfs more available [11:07am] Cloudii: *apreciation [11:08am] hayashi: it weakens our position on not enabling piracy [11:08am] Cthaeh: Also because I wanted to get Simon/Lery to disable google page caching and webarchive for those pages [11:08am] Cloudii: well, I see it more from a practical standpoint [11:08am] Cloudii: currently it takes a Cthaeh a lot of work to search through forum posts 1 by 1 for any PDFs [11:08am] Cloudii: this way we can put it in the rules: “No PDF links except in this subboard" [11:08am] Cthaeh: I'm also concerned on hayashi's point, is why I've been dragging my feet [11:08am] Teh_ping: gather them all [11:09am] Teh_ping: or not? [11:09am] Teh_ping: tbh, we're still grey in this area [11:09am] Kira0802: It's either going to be PDFs that people hunt for or PDFs that we can provide [11:09am] Victorrama: I vote for not [11:09am] Teh_ping: tbh, I think there will be others already providing the PDFs [11:09am] Kira0802: I'd rather have us providing them than a third party making ads money through linking them [11:10am] Victorrama: Agreed with hayashi [11:10am] Cloudii: Well, to me it’s a vote between status quo and Cthaeh’s proposal [11:10am] Teh_ping: ...it's a lose-lose situation how [11:10am] Teh_ping: huh* [11:10am] Cloudii: the status quo is that PDFs are linked randomly in the forum posts [11:10am] Cloudii: the alternative is to concentrate them all somewhere [11:11am] watuo joined the chat room. [11:11am] Kira0802: I vote for concentrate [11:11am] Cloudii: Cthaeh, if it makes you feel better, we can delay this for the next executive council board [11:11am] Cloudii: the present executive council here is mostly in favor of concentrating as far as I can tell [11:12am] Cthaeh: Sure, I'm personally going to be doing work on it before then [11:12am] Cloudii: I’m also in favor of concentrating [11:12am] Cloudii: if only for logistical reasons [11:12am] Cloudii: Any other topics? [11:13am] watuo: is this a chat to see what series should be translated? [11:13am] Cloudii: nope [11:13am] Cthaeh: no [11:13am] Kira0802: Oh right [11:13am] Teh_ping: nope [11:13am] Kira0802: Questions about servers; [11:13am] Teh_ping: let's repeat this again, no series will be reinstated despite the move [11:13am] Joay: that pdf link relocation apply to existing links? [11:13am] Kira0802: What does that mean for Kadokawa DCMAs? [11:13am] Cloudii: yes Teh_ping [11:14am] Cloudii: we already received the DMCAs so those series are not being reinstated [11:14am] Teh_ping: all DMCAed series will not be reinstated, AT ALL [11:14am] hyddty_ joined the chat room. [11:14am] Kira0802: And what does Lery's server location provide as an advantage? [11:14am] Cloudii: yes, that was what the executive council agreed on last month [11:14am] Teh_ping: moving servers is mostly to stop the bleeding, actually [11:14am] Cthaeh: Lery's stays online [11:14am] Cloudii: It’s more like we don’t have an alternative; TLG is dropping the ball [11:14am] Cloudii: [11:14am] Cloudii: that’s something he already decided [11:15am] Joay: just curious, from what Kadokawa branch did the DMCA come from ... [11:15am] hyddty left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [11:15am] Cloudii: I have no idea. It’s somewhere in the forums [11:15am] Cloudii: It was sent by a proxy of Kadokawa I think, actually [11:15am] observer left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed) [11:16am] Cloudii: Anything else? last calls [11:16am] zxzxzx: in regards to future DMCAs, what will happen? [11:16am] Cloudii: The same as always [11:16am] Cloudii: if we get a DMCA, the series gets removed [11:16am] Kira0802: What about alternative languages [11:16am] Victorrama: I say kill it along [11:16am] Cloudii: I think the current protocol is that the alternative language stays [11:16am] Cloudii: I think [11:17am] Cthaeh: I'm fine with just deleting the pages listed by the dmcas [11:17am] Kira0802: I never understood the point of Kadokawa nuking a French project when the series will never see the light in French [11:17am] Cthaeh: (and cleaning up random missed pages) [11:17am] Victorrama: Random bot shot? [11:17am] Teh_ping: nope, alt goes too [11:17am] Teh_ping: it was in the original link [11:17am] Cloudii: In either case, @victorrama, if you feel differently, this is something to express in the elections~ [11:17am] Teh_ping: all languages go in the DMCA [11:18am] Victorrama: Tomorrow huh? [11:18am] Cloudii: where is this Teh_Ping? [11:18am] Kira0802: I've been under the impression Kadokawa just ctrl-F its projects and be like "this is illegal" [11:18am] Cloudii: on the all languages going in the DMCA? [11:19am] Cloudii: This hasn’t been our policy; when Spice and Wolf went, the other languages stayed [11:19am] Teh_ping: I'm looking into it atm [11:19am] Teh_ping: think deletion was inconsistent back then [11:20am] Kira0802: Book Girl Vietnamese stayed, for instance [11:20am] Cloudii: Teh ping if you want to nuke the alt languages you should run for executive council~ [11:20am] Teh_ping: ...I'm checking through 30k messages for now [11:21am] Cloudii: Alright anything else (for the last time)? [11:21am] Cloudii: Otherwise I’m ending the log here [11:21am] Kira0802: End the log here [11:21am] Cloudii: Cool~ [11:21am] Cloudii: Meeting ajourned! [11:22am] aielarbalest: good work guys [11:22am] Teh_ping: cloud, for an idea for DMCA: https://lumendatabase.org/notices/11335568 [11:22am] Kira0802: (And adopt RS' proposal) [11:22am] • Victorrama cheers [11:22am] Cloudii: what do you mean Teh_ping? [11:22am] Teh_ping: https://lumendatabase.org/notices/11667737 [11:22am] Teh_ping: ...well, if you check the links, they do have alt [11:22am] Teh_ping: it's just inconsistent [11:22am] Kira0802: It fucking went to the Vietnamese and French projects [11:23am] Cloudii: Well, take down the projects that the DMCA hits [11:23am] Cloudii: if the DMCA misses… idk… spanish… then spanish runs free [11:23am] Cloudii: Russian Roulette! [11:23am] Joay: heh [11:23am] Victorrama: That sounds.... Meeping fun [11:23am] Kira0802: Just for fun [11:24am] Kira0802: Is there a way to unlist projects from Google? [11:24am] Kira0802: .g discord [11:24am] Victorrama: Kill the meta? [11:24am] Cthaeh: yes, there is [11:24am] Cthaeh: but I don't really want to do that [11:25am] Cthaeh: (personally) [11:25am] Kira0802: Ah, ok. [11:25am] Teh_ping: we're just strangling ourselves if we do that, I think

Complete Log of the Sunday Session
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