Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

[Trabius]

This thread is kind of like the Learning Section, except I'm focusing more on the grammatical side of translation questions so that anyone who's interested in learning Japanese can get a more detailed understanding for future reference. Plus, this will help solidify my own understanding of Japanese grammar.

Introduction to basic Japanese grammar

I’m writing this with the assumption that the reader has only a passing knowledge of Japanese, but it wouldn’t hurt to be familiar with cultural things like honorifics. Even though some of what I’m including might seem really simple, I hope it will help in building a stronger grammatical foundation.

However, I’m not fleshing out the entirety of each subject as there are already books on all the things I’m going to discuss. I'd like to go over particles more later, but right now, I want to touch on topics like Context, Copulas, Adjectives, Particles, and Simple verbs. I may or may not include vocabulary, which would likely only include words that are confusing to use straight from a dictionary.

Part 1
Context
Context is key because unlike in English where the subject of a sentence is often clearly stated, Japanese tends to expect the reader/listener to be able to determine the topic based on context. The subject is often left off, so a sentence might only have a verb or seem like a fragment of sorts when translated directly into English. Usually, this means the situational context makes the subject clear, as in proximity to the indicated subject when speaking. It can also mean that the topic can be inferred as the speaker/writer continuing a train of thought with the same subject unless otherwise indicated. Another case is based on politeness levels.

After continued exposure to the language, inferring the unspoken subject shouldn’t be too difficult though it may still be tricky in some cases. Just keep in mind that it may not be obvious and pay attention to shifts in the subject.

Copula
A copula is a part of speech that links subjects and predicates. The most basic Japanese copula, です(desu), can act like the English equivalent of the ‘to be’ verbs such as ‘is’, ‘am’ and ‘are’ except that it comes at the end of a sentence. ‘Desu’ is the present polite form of the copula, but it can also be used in some cases of polite language where it isn’t a copula. ‘Desu’ implies a sort of definitive statement and follows the structure of [(noun/adjective)+desu], which basically mean [It is (noun/adjective)]. Here is where context comes into play with semantics.

An example of a very simple sentence:
トムです。(Tomu desu.) “(i) am Tom”/“[It] is Tom”

So トム, a katakana rendering of Tom, can be considered the part of the predicate that is being linked to the subject by the copula です(desu). The subject is unspoken in this case, leaving the reader to use context. To know that Tom is speaking the line rather than being introduced requires some knowledge of formality. When introducing someone else, it is customary to be polite and that would include using honorifics. On the other hand, when introducing yourself, no honorific should be included, which is why it can be inferred that this sentence is being spoken by Tom.

So for another example:
トムさんです。(Tomu-san desu.) “[This] is Tom.”

です can be turned into past tense into the form of でした(deshita). It still functions the same but in past tense. [(noun/adjective)+deshita]=”[It] was (noun/adjective)”

While です/でした is relatively polite, there are also informal versions. だ is an equivalent of です, while だった is an equivalent of でした.

An example of past tense informal declaration:
大変だった。 (Taihen datta) “[It] was horrible.”

Besides the Noun+copula sentence, you can also make context-based sentences from adjectives, some of which use copulas.

Adjectives
Adjectives in Japanese are split into what are called “-い(i) adjectives” and “な(na) adjectives”. For the most part it is simple to tell them apart because the い adjectives mostly end with an い such as in 楽しい(tanoshii=fun) or 新しい(atarashii=new) while な adjectives usually don’t, such as 簡単(kantan=simple) or 静か(shizuka=quiet/peaceful). However, there are exceptions such as 奇麗(kirei=clean/pretty), which is actually a な adjective. The exceptions just have to be memorized, but they’re not too common. Anyway, what separates the two types is how they are conjugated or used to describe nouns.

い adjectives are the simplest. To use an い adjective, just place it in front of the noun being described. Example: 新しい本だ。(atarashii hon da) “[It] is a new book.” The addition of atarashii adds the descriptor “new” to 本(hon=book). Adjectives can also be used to make extremely simple context-based sentences. Example: 楽しい (tanoshii) “[It’s] fun.”

This is probably the simplest you can get while still being coherent. One thing to note is that this is a very informal sentence. If you want it to be formal you would add です or でした, as in 楽しいです。(Tanoshii desu) “[This] is fun.” 楽しいでした。(Tanoshii deshita) “[That] was fun.”

However, です is not acting as a copula in this case, and so you wouldn’t useだ or だった. If you want to conjugate an い adjective into informal past form, you drop the い and add かった. Example 楽しい(tanoshii) “[This] is fun”-->楽しかった(Tanoshikatta) “[That] was fun.”

One more thing to note is the conjugation with verbs. In that case, the い would be replaced with く(ku) and placed in front of the verb. Just keep that in mind for the section on verbs.


な adjectives are a little more complex but not by very much. To describe with a な adjective, you place the adjective+な in front of the noun. Example: 静かな町だ。 (shizuka na machi da) “[It] is a peaceful town.”

Unlike い adjectives, な adjectives are not used on their own. They require a copula to form a sentence. Example: 静かだ(shizuka da) “[It] is quiet”. You can make it past tense by changing the だ-->だった or make it formal by using either です/でした.

Like with the い adjectives, な adjectives are conjugated when used together with verbs. Instead of な, に is added after the adjective to make 静かに[verb]=”To [verb] quietly”.

So far, this has covered the most basic of sentences that didn’t really have defined subjects. In order to create full sentences, you’ll have to first learn about particles.

Part 2
This is pretty much a skimpy overview of particles. Getting in depth will require a lot of examples, which I can hopefully integrate with later sections.

Particles-
Particles function as syntax markers, meaning that they indicate the relationship of a word or phrase in the context of the rest of the sentence. Here are most of the noncompound particles in Japanese: は(ha)、が(ga)、も(mo)、の(no)、を(wo)、で(de)、に(ni)、 から(kara)、まで(made)、か(ka)、and と(to). Having the wrong particle may even change the meaning of a sentence entirely, so although it’s common for particles to be left out in casual Japanese, you should make sure you have a good grasp on how they function. Just as a note, particles can be used in a variety of combinations, but in those cases some of the properties of the component particles carry over.

は (written ‘ha’ but read ‘wa’)-The Topic Marker-
The first particle you need to learn is は. は is often referred to as the topic marker, and it indicates the subject of a sentence based on the noun that precedes it. As I’ve said before, the subject isn’t always clear, but if you see a は then that is almost definitely denoting the subject at hand. The staple example: これはペンです。(Kore ha pen desu.) “This is a pen.”
The は marks これ(kore=this) as the subject, the copula です links “this” to “pen”, hence “This is a pen.”. It usually places only light emphasis on the preceding noun to indicate the topic, although it can also be used in contrasting points of view that focus on the preceding noun. In the beginning you can think of it as a light subject marker.

が (ga)
が usually acts as the main subject marker. It places greater emphasis on the preceding noun than は does. Intransitive verbs adopt が when creating a direct relationship between the subject and verb. I didn’t want to use verbs yet but anyway, here’s an example: ペンが落ちた(pen ga ochita) The pen fell.

Another use for が is to contrast two complete sentences. Example: 彼は九十歳ですが、元気です。(Kare wa kyuujuu-sai desu ga, genki desu.) “He is 90 years old, but he’s in good health.”
Ending a sentence with ですが is also a common way to set up for a request or provide an explanation.

Contrast は vs が
Although these two markers might seem interchangeable, and they sometimes are, they serve different functions. は serves as more of a reference marker so the listener/reader will know what the subject is, while が is focusing on the subject directly. Example, compare these two sentences:
それはいいです。(sore ha ii desu) That’s good.
それがいいです。(sore ga ii desu) That’s good.
The emphasis of the second sentence is on the object itself compared to the first sentence.

も(mo)
も after a noun is similar to the English "too" or "as well". Example: 私も (watashi mo) "Me too/I too..."
When used with a quantity it can indicate excess. Example: ビールを十本も飲みました(bi-ru wo jyuppon mo nomimashita) (I drank as many as ten bottles of beer)
It can also be used with negatives to denote "not even. Example: ビールを一本も飲まなかった。(bi-ru wo ippon mo nomanakatta) (I did not even drink a single bottle of beer.)

の (no)-
Often indicates a direct descriptor, as in 私の名前(watashi no=my name[Or, the name of me]). It’s often used as a possessive, so when you have Noun1+の+Noun2, you can usually think of it as “Noun2 of Noun1”. Example:
子供の時(kodomo no toki=child (no) time) [Childhood]
When the noun itself is a description, the の is acting like a な in な adjectives.
最後のバス(saigo no basu=last (no) bus) [The last bus]

Another function of の or 事(koto=nonphysical thing) is to act as a noun substitute when preceded by a noun modifier. Example:
彼は読むのが好きです。(Kare ha yomu no ga suki desu) He likes to read.
There are also occasions when の can replace が to connect a stative verb with the subject. Example: 一番人気のあるのはどっちですか。([ichiban ninki no aru] no ha docchi desu ka=The one which is most popular, which one is?) “Which one is most popular?”
While I mentioned before that が usually links stative verbs with their subject, the use of が also acts as a subject marker that directs focus. Having の rather than が circumvents this, leaving the main subject as “Which one” rather than “popular”. In the example above, の was also used as a marker for the noun modifier. の is acting as a blank noun with its entirety defined by the phrase denoted by brackets. This sort of の can be thought of as “The one that/which/who…”.

を(wo)
を is used to denote direct objects in conjunction with transitive verbs. It’s the simplest of all the particles because that’s pretty much all it does.
Example: 昼ご飯を食べました。 (hirugohan wo tabemashita.) I ate lunch.

に(ni)
に is a vital particle that serves a number of uses, although many overlap. Some of the basics include indicating time, place, a transaction going one way or the other, or a destination. Examples (some of these are sentence fragments):
四時に (yonji ni) At four o’clock
兄に (ani ni) To my elder brother/ by my elder brother [depends on rest of sentence]
部屋に(heya ni) In the room
机の上に (tsukue no ue ni) On top of the desk

で(de)
Likewise with で, there are several applications. A couple of them are indicating a place of action or how something is done. Examples:
駅で(eki de) At the station
鋏で(hasami de) With scissors
一人で(hitori de) By oneself

Contrast で and に
The first thing I want to point out is that although both particles may indicate a “where”, で is used with an action while に is used when there is a stative verb. Example:
レストランで働いてる(resutoran de hataraiteru) [I work at a restaurant.] You wouldn’t use に because the subject is performing an action at the place.
子供達は台所にいる(kodomo-tachi ha daidokoro ni iru) [The kids are in the kitchen.]

から(kara) and まで(made)
Most of the time, [kara] can be thought of as “from” and [made] can be thought of as “until”. Examples:
一時から二時まで(ichiji kara niji made) From 1:00 until 2:00
アメリカから来ました(amerika kara kimashita) I’m from America.
負けるまで(makeru made) until I lose
Also, in contrast to が, から can link one sentence to the next as a reason. (Sent1+から+Sent2=[S2 because of S1]/[S1, so S2] Example:
寒いからセーターを着た(samui kara se-ta- wo kita) It's cold so I wore a sweater. Because it's cold, I wore a sweater. [Side note: Samui means cold as in weather; tsumetai means cold to the touch]

と(to) and か(ka)
と can indicate doing something together, as in 家族と冬休みを過ごした(kazoku to fuyuyasumi wo sugoshita) I spent winter break with my family.
When used with verbs of speech and the like, it acts like the “that” before a quote. 彼は疲れたと言った(kare ha tsukareta to itta) "He said that he was tired."
It can also act as a conjunction between nouns. Example: 火と水(hi to mizu) fire and water.

か is another conjunction that is more like an “or”. バスか自転車で(basu ka jitensha de) By bus or by bicycle.
か can be thought of as a questioning particle. Forming questions is another function of か. If you add it to a declaration, you can make a question. Example:
猫が好きです。(neko ga suki desu) “I like cats”
猫が好きですか。 (neko ga suki desu ka) “Do you like cats?”
If you noticed, the subject also changed based on context because with the addition of か, the speaker is inquiring rather than stating a fact. For the most part, か can be added to any sentence to change it from declarative to interrogative.
いいですか(ii desu ka) "Is [it] good?"
いいです(ii desu) "[It] is good."

While both とand か junction nouns concretely, the combination (toka) can be used to denote that a list is only showing examples and is not exhaustive, kind of like etc. Same thing goes for the conjunction や, which is used when you don’t want to delineate the entire list.

Hopefully this outline offers a general sense of what each particle does. It's only an outline, and I've also left out some of the particles that I didn't think were necessary for now, such as し and より.

Part 3
Verbs-
There are a few ways to categorize verbs but the two basic distinctions to keep in mind are whether it is

1) Transitive or intransitive-
A simple way to determine this is remembering that transitive verbs indicate the subject acting on an object, whereas intransitive verbs refer to the subject. Transitive verbs include things like ‘to eat’, ‘to do’, or ‘to buy’, while intransitive verbs include things like ‘to be’, ‘to go’, or ‘to run’. While you can say “He ate” without an explicit direct object, the understanding is that the subject must have eaten something; on the other hand, to say “He ran” requires no other object to define the subject’s actions.

There are also some transitive/intransitive verb pairs that are similar to one another. Example:
Transitive--- 本を落とした(hon wo otoshita) [otosu=’to drop’] “{I} dropped the book”　
Intransitive--- 本が落ちた (hon ga ochita) [ochiru=’to fall] “The book fell.”
If you notice, the object affected by the transitive verb is denoted by を and is not the subject of the sentence, while in the intransitive case, the object being affected is denoted by が and is the subject.

2) u, ru, or irregular (also known as godan, ichidan, or irregular)-
Knowing the difference between u and ru verbs is the most crucial aspect of learning Japanese verbs because it determines how the verbs are conjugated. You should start with verbs as they are shown in a dictionary, which are conjugated into plain form or also appropriately referred to as the dictionary form. In plain form, ru verbs include most of the ones that end in る while U verbs include all the others; however, there are some verbs that end in る that are actually u verbs, as well as verbs that are somewhat irregular.

While verbs such as ある(aru)、行く(iku)、or 話す(hanasu) have slight irregularities, they are mostly like regular ru verbs; the two that are considered highly irregular are する(suru) and 来る(kuru). I’m going to leave the irregularities for later and concentrate on the ru and u verbs.

The first thing I want to go over is the conjugation between plain form and ます(masu) form. Masu form is more polite, and although there are other forms that distinguish formality, you can think of plain form as informal and masu form as formal. To conjugate a verb from plain to masu form, you add ます to the stem form of a verb. Stem form differs for ru and u verbs slightly, but it's relatively simple to learn.

Stem Form
Because I find ru verbs much easier to understand, I'm splitting the verbs up into ru and u first and going through them separately. It would probably be more efficient to combine conjugations, but then there might be increased confusion. Just keep in mind that the first section is dealing with only ru verbs, whereas the section on u verbs is a little further down.

Ru verbs
As I said before, many verbs that end in る(ru) fall into the classification of “ru verbs”. They are rather simple as most conjugations simply drop the る from the plain form to create what is called a “stem form”. For example, the stem form of 見る(miru=to see/watch) is 見(み), and therefore, the masu form is 見ます. Most ru verbs are directly conjugated by addition to their stem forms, making them much simpler than the u verbs, which change slightly in different cases.

Simple negative form
Now that you know stem form, you can start conjugating ru verbs into negative form. The plain negative equivalent of a ru verb is the [stem form + ない].
Examples: 食べる(taberu=to eat)--[drop る]-->食べ(たべ)--[add ない]-->食べない(minai=to not eat)
肉を食べない(niku wo tabenai)=I do not eat meat

Likewise for the formal negative equivalent of a ru verb is the [stem form + ません] 見(mi)-->見ません(mimasen=to not see).

Past form
To conjugate a ru verb into plain past form you add た(ta) to the stem form. Example: あげる(ageru=to give)-->あげ(age)-->あげた(ageta=gave).

Future/present form
While I'm on the subject of tenses, I'd like to note that there is no real 'future form' in Japanese. The plain and masu forms of verbs serve as both present and future forms. If you want to indicate a future tense, you'll usually define a reference time; another thing you can do is to add つもりです(-tsumori desu=It is my intention...) after a plain form verb, which will indicate a future plan.
Example: ヨーロッパに行くつもりです。(Yo-roppa ni iku tsumori desu=It is my plan to go to Europe [someday]) Meaning "I'm going to go to Europe."








U verbs
The conjugation of u verbs to stem form is relatively simple enough, as the final syllable is shifted from the u-->i kana. Example: のむ (nomu=to drink) in plain form--> のみ (nomi) stem form, where the final む(mu)-->み(mi). From the stem form, you add ます to yield the masu form for the u verbs -->(のみます). Unfortunately, this stem form doesn't apply to all conjugations like in the case of the ru verbs. However, the modifications are usually shifts in the final syllable in much the same way that you conjugated to the stem form just now.

Early on when it comes to the verbs ending in ru, you might forget whether it is u or ru, but if you begin to familiarize yourself with both the dictionary and the masu forms by hearing/seeing it often, I think you should be able to remember which ones are which by the stem conjugation. That is, if you remember that the masu form of aru is arimasu, you'll recognize that the stem form after dropping the masu is ended in "ari" and is therefore an u verb rather than a ru verb.

-Te form








Potential form
Just like it sounds, potential form basically indicates the subject can do something, as in "can read". As usual, conjugation slightly differs between u and ru verbs. For a る verb, you just add られる/られます to the stem form:
食べ＋られます=食べられます(I can eat...) Example: もっと食べられる(I can [still] eat more)
Something to note is that this is also technically the method of conjugating ru verbs into passive form, so taberareru can mean both "to be eaten" and "to be able to eat". You'll probably often hear the potential form as stem+reru though, as in tabereru.






Criticism or questions on topics I haven't gotten to yet are certainly welcome since I can't really tell whether or not this is understandable from the perspective of someone just beginning to learn Japanese. I've most likely left out the finer details, and I hope that I can improve this by filling in any blanks that aren't obvious. Also, if there's anything blatantly wrong, make sure to let me know because I don't want to confuse anyone.

[salv87]

so far - clear, well, added some knowledge on adjectives (the な-ones)
BTW about い and な-adjective..
so in your example the the な ended with an "i" sound, but the the kanji writing didn't have a hiragana "い" ending as opposed to the い-adj.
奇麗 and 楽しい. You understan dwhat I mean, I hope ^_^ is it always so, or are there exceptions when the kanji wirting for a na words ends with a hiragana い.

Also, about 静かに　－if used by itself, it means "be quiet" if Iremember correctly? is this related to the に-particle, aiming the action at everything being quit?
hmm.. if so, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself ^_^

still. good start

[Trabius]

so far - clear, well, added some knowledge on adjectives (the な-ones)

Also, about 静かに　－if used by itself, it means "be quiet" if Iremember correctly? is this related to the に-particle, aiming the action at everything being quit?
hmm.. if so, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself ^_^

still. good start

静かに is short for 静かにしろ (shizuka ni shiro) (Be quiet). I haven't even gotten to verbs yet, which is why I was a little confused on where I should put the adverbial forms. I just tacked it on for later so I wouldn't have to go back. In this case, shiro is a commanding form of suru, meaning 'to do'. So it's kind of like, "Act quietly".

[salv87]

aha, that's what I wanted to know basically ^_^

I see the japanese like to shorten their sentences and words a lot. that is what makes learning a bit more complicated..

PS there's a small update in my previos post, butI'll rewrite it here then:

BTW about い and な-adjective..
so in your example the the な ended with an "i" sound, but the the kanji writing didn't have a hiragana "い" ending as opposed to the い-adj.
奇麗 and 楽しい. You understan dwhat I mean, I hope ^_^ is it always so, or are there exceptions when the kanji wirting for a na words ends with a hiragana い.

[Trabius]

aha, that's what I wanted to know basically ^_^

I see the japanese like to shorten their sentences and words a lot. that is what makes learning a bit more complicated..

PS there's a small update in my previos post, butI'll rewrite it here then:

BTW about い and な-adjective..
so in your example the the な ended with an "i" sound, but the the kanji writing didn't have a hiragana "い" ending as opposed to the い-adj.
奇麗 and 楽しい. You understan dwhat I mean, I hope ^_^ is it always so, or are there exceptions when the kanji wirting for a na words ends with a hiragana い.

There's at least one such example of a な adjective having an い that I can think of: 嫌い(kirai=distasteful/disliked).

[duncan]

I have a couple of notes that I want to add that are not often found in books, and are not part of the standard pedagogy. My Japanese is not terrific, so take this with a grain of salt.

The copula takes a lot of forms in Japanese. This can be confusing. "desu" is just one form of many. The copula can also be "da" or "na" (before "no") or "de aru" or "de ari" or "de arimasu" or "de gozaimasu". In extreme period-speak it can even be "degasu", though most Japanese would not even recognize that form. But see "Twilight Samurai" for an example of that usage. I'm looking forward to "degasu" as a /b/tard meme. "DEGASUDEGASUDEGASU" OK, that's enough of that, I think.　Let's observe a moment of silence for that short-lived, but incredibly productive meme.

You should also note that the "copula" is often used in places where it does not really serve as a copula- instead it adjusts the tone of the sentence. One of the reasons that many English speakers wind up sounding feminine in Japanese is that they learn their Japanese from women. Japanese men will use "da" in places that a Japanese woman would not, for the most part. Just from that example it is clear that "da" has no grammatical function in those instances. There is a similar point that I'll mention when I talk about adjectives.

Japanese divides grammatical categories differently than English. From a syntactic point of view "-い” adjectives are more like verbs than they are like "な” adjectives, and "な” adjectives are more like nouns than they are like "-い" adjectives. And, getting back to the copula, "-い” adjectives seem to have a built in copula, but "な”　adjectives don't. So "難しい" is a complete... utterance. "静か”　is not- you need to say "静かだ. But it would be wrong to say "難しいだ."

But, going back to the role of the copula in adjusting the tone of a sentence, "難しいです”　is not wrong. In this case the copula is required, but it clearly does not act as a copula. Instead it adjusts the tone of the sentence.. in this case it makes it "polite". Are you confused yet? I know I am...

EDIT: another example of a "な" adjective that ends in "い" is "きれい”.

[Trabius]

The copula takes a lot of forms in Japanese. This can be confusing. "desu" is just one form of many. The copula can also be "da" or "na" (before "no") or "de aru" or "de ari" or "de arimasu" or "de gozaimasu". In extreme period-speak it can even be "degasu", though most Japanese would not even recognize that form. But see "Twilight Samurai" for an example of that usage. I'm looking forward to "degasu" as a /b/tard meme. "DEGASUDEGASUDEGASU" OK, that's enough of that, I think.　Let's observe a moment of silence for that short-lived, but incredibly productive meme.

You're right that there are variations that function similarly, but for now I'm trying to stick to the simple plain and polite copulas rather than delve into humble/honorific/other obscure forms. In any case, I'm not sure if I'm ordering things right because I probably should have included the negative forms as well. I think I'm putting it in with the verbs? I don't know. I've heard of all the other ones, but I've never heard or read degasu before, which I guess makes sense since I don't read any classical stuff or anything.

You should also note that the "copula" is often used in places where it does not really serve as a copula- instead it adjusts the tone of the sentence. One of the reasons that many English speakers wind up sounding feminine in Japanese is that they learn their Japanese from women. Japanese men will use "da" in places that a Japanese woman would not, for the most part. Just from that example it is clear that "da" has no grammatical function in those instances. There is a similar point that I'll mention when I talk about adjectives.

I thought da was always a copula, but I could be wrong. One thing I might have glossed over was the fact that desu isn't always a copula. That's what I meant when I said it's used to make things polite. You can pretty much add desu to anything that's not a verb, but you can't do the same with da.

Japanese divides grammatical categories differently than English. From a syntactic point of view "-い” adjectives are more like verbs than they are like "な” adjectives, and "な” adjectives are more like nouns than they are like "-い" adjectives. And, getting back to the copula, "-い” adjectives seem to have a built in copula, but "な”　adjectives don't. So "難しい" is a complete... utterance. "静か”　is not- you need to say "静かだ. But it would be wrong to say "難しいだ."

I remember I used to use "いいだ" because I didn't understand the difference between that and いいです. Anyway, い adjectives+だ is bad, yeah.

But, going back to the role of the copula in adjusting the tone of a sentence, "難しいです”　is not wrong. In this case the copula is required, but it clearly does not act as a copula. Instead it adjusts the tone of the sentence.. in this case it makes it "polite". Are you confused yet? I know I am...

EDIT: another example of a "な" adjective that ends in "い" is "きれい”.

That's not wrong, but he was asking about ones where the kanji didn't include the い, whereas the い in 奇麗 is part of the kanji.

[Macko Darlack]

So far, this has covered the most basic of sentences that didn’t really have defined subjects. In order to create full sentences, you’ll have to first learn about particles. I’ll get to that next time since it gets relatively complicated. If there's anything unclear or something I missed, feel free to tell me. I can tell it's rather boring, but I had to start somewhere and after the kana, I think this is the core of Japanese grammar. I would have liked to do some parts with verbs, but then I felt like I'd need to go over conjugation, which would take a while.

Still, questions on topics I haven't gotten to yet are certainly welcome.

nice intro, sir !!! very clear, indeed so, I want to know sth: which is the syntactical order?? i mean, you said it is basically SOV (OSV?), but in a complex sentence with adverbs, conditionals, adjectives (degrees?), which is the proper order??? or maybe it can be included in each topic: if adverbs-topic, a syntax order includin adverb, right??

another thing is the multiple pronouns. i mean, i know 私 (わたし, わたくし, あたい, あたし) , 俺 (おれ), 僕 (ぼく), 我 (われ) are "I"... yet the usage is not very clear... some are unpolite and polite ways, but why too much?

i can contribute with charts, if you want. yet i don't understand them too much not a very good text-book

[Trabius]

So far, this has covered the most basic of sentences that didn’t really have defined subjects. In order to create full sentences, you’ll have to first learn about particles. I’ll get to that next time since it gets relatively complicated. If there's anything unclear or something I missed, feel free to tell me. I can tell it's rather boring, but I had to start somewhere and after the kana, I think this is the core of Japanese grammar. I would have liked to do some parts with verbs, but then I felt like I'd need to go over conjugation, which would take a while.

Still, questions on topics I haven't gotten to yet are certainly welcome.

nice intro, sir !!! very clear, indeed so, I want to know sth: which is the syntactical order?? i mean, you said it is basically SOV (OSV?), but in a complex sentence with adverbs, conditionals, adjectives (degrees?), which is the proper order??? or maybe it can be included in each topic: if adverbs-topic, a syntax order includin adverb, right??

Hm, that's a very intricate question. A basic sentence is predominately SOV. The OSV is something I've only seen occasionally where the subject gets stuck into the middle, which I think is for emphasis. Once you add other things, the sentence still follows that format somewhat unless it's a compound sentence. Adverbs and adjectives usually go right before the words they describe. Conditionals usually go near the beginning of a sentence. Like 病気になったら、医者に掛かるべきでしょう。(byouki ni nattara, isha ni kakaru beki deshou) "If you're getting sick, you should see a doctor, shouldn't you?". I'll try to include some formatting when I get around to writing about more complete sentences.

another thing is the multiple pronouns. i mean, i know 私 (わたし, わたくし, あたい, あたし) , 俺 (おれ), 僕 (ぼく), 我 (われ) are "I"... yet the usage is not very clear... some are unpolite and polite ways, but why too much?

i can contribute with charts, if you want. yet i don't understand them too much not a very good text-book

Watashi can be used by most people without any problems. Watakushi is definitely feminine sounding, likely to be used only by very polite women. Don't really know about atai, but I'm guessing it's also used by women. I've heard atashi used to sound cute, and it's also feminine.

Ore, boku, and ware are all masculine. Boku is okay for general use, though it may kind of sound harsh? Ore and ware sound more punkish to me.

Basically, stick to watashi unless you have good reason to be polite.

[Edit] I was wondering about that atai, so I googled it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns Looks like I was completely wrong about ware. Anyway, lot of explanation in chart form

Japanese divides grammatical categories differently than English. From a syntactic point of view "-い” adjectives are more like verbs than they are like "な” adjectives, and "な” adjectives are more like nouns than they are like "-い" adjectives. And, getting back to the copula, "-い” adjectives seem to have a built in copula, but "な”　adjectives don't. So "難しい" is a complete... utterance. "静か”　is not- you need to say "静かだ. But it would be wrong to say "難しいだ."

I think you're right about the い adjective to verb comparison. You don't add copulas to either verbs or い adjectives. Plus you can conjugate the い adjectives independently, kind of like with verbs.

[duncan]

You're right that there are variations that function similarly, but for now I'm trying to stick to the simple plain and polite copulas rather than delve into humble/honorific/other obscure forms. In any case, I'm not sure if I'm ordering things right because I probably should have included the negative forms as well. I think I'm putting it in with the verbs? I don't know. I've heard of all the other ones, but I've never heard or read degasu before, which I guess makes sense since I don't read any classical stuff or anything.

Well, I wasn't criticizing your post- I was expanding on it . For me the different forms of the copula were confusing for a while, and I've seen a lot of people get tripped up by them, so I was adding a note for people wired like me- I like to have a structure to hang things on. The form you really have to watch out for is the "na" before the "no". It took me ages to understand that that was a form of the copula, and it didn't help that my textbook decided to explain that in a chapter that was supposed to be used toward the end of the second year of Japanese study... In everyday Japanese that is a very common pattern. "degasu" is an oddity... something I picked up from a period movie. I have never heard it used outside of that context, and I suspect it would make most Japanese say "lolwut?"

I'm too lazy right now (beer) to properly quote you, but I'll explain what I meant about the copula...

If you can leave it out, it cannot be functioning as the copula, can it? If you can leave it out it clearly serves no grammatical function- instead it is a way of signaling something. In other words, it adjusts the tone of the sentence. What that adjustment signifies is pretty subjective, but in this case it often means "I'm a guy", or " "I really mean this." Do you understand my point now? "da" is not always the copula. It is important to understand this, I think. [EDIT: to be clear, it is certainly the copula from a grammarian's point of view, but it is certainly not from the point of view of a semantician. I happen to hold the view that there is no grammar, just semantics, but if I go much further down this path we will be arguing about Chomskyan lingustics, and I don't think there is any need to go that far here]

And yes- the point about the "built-in" copula in "-い”　adjectives is important. I think it was covered in the text I used, but it took me a long time to learn to _hear_it, and I always screwed it up until I learned to _hear_ it. The truth is that "-い" adjectives are syntactically very close to verbs in Japanese, and once you can _hear_ that you stop having problems with it. But until they can hear it, it is good to remind people of that fact.

Nothing I'm saying here will surprise people who speak Japanese (and I know that most of the translators here speak much better Japanese than I do.) But they are points that are generally left implicit, and I think they should be explicitly explained aty the outset, to people who want to learn Japanese.

[TheGiftedMonkey]

Bookmarked for reference. Awesome job so far.

[Macko Darlack]

Hm, that's a very intricate question. A basic sentence is predominately SOV. The OSV is something I've only seen occasionally where the subject gets stuck into the middle, which I think is for emphasis. Once you add other things, the sentence still follows that format somewhat unless it's a compound sentence. Adverbs and adjectives usually go right before the words they describe. Conditionals usually go near the beginning of a sentence. Like 病気になったら、医者に掛かるべきでしょう。(byouki ni nattara, isha ni kakaru beki deshou) "If you're getting sick, you should see a doctor, shouldn't you?". I'll try to include some formatting when I get around to writing about more complete sentences.

so, all conditionals have 'tag questions' in jap? because when u helped me out with the translation, u also wrote a conditinal with a tagQuest within.. is that a rule? or maybe i'm overtaking [correct verb?] next lessons..?

waaaaa there are more pronouns than I imagined... damn! i'm wishing to be on vacation soon...

[duncan]

Watashi can be used by most people without any problems. Watakushi is definitely feminine sounding, likely to be used only by very polite women. Don't really know about atai, but I'm guessing it's also used by women. I've heard atashi used to sound cute, and it's also feminine.

Ore, boku, and ware are all masculine. Boku is okay for general use, though it may kind of sound harsh? Ore and ware sound more punkish to me.

Watakushi is not particularly feminine sounding if you are an adult male. It is just very formal. My copy of "こころ” gives that as the furigana for the narrator's 私。That narrator is not overly effeminate.

But, if you are a young man both watashi and watakushi are effeminate. I am old enough that watashi is appropriate, but Krikit (just to give an example) might not be. Since he is an innocent sort he ought to use "boku", I imagine. That is the word that refined young men use to refer to themselves. He could also call himself "ore"- that used to have a rough flavor, but I think it is more accepted now. I am an older man, so I will generally use watashi, but if I am writing an essay I might use "boku" if I want to indicate humility in a certain passage.

Watashi is feminine if used by a teenage boy because girls are supposed to adopt that form by their early teens. Some of them do use "boku "though, and there is a lot of strife around that. Anyway, these words cannot be divorced from context. I am 36 years old, so I don't sound like a girl when I say watashi. But if you are a 16 year old boy you will sound very effeminate if you call yourself watashi.

[Trabius]

Hm, that's a very intricate question. A basic sentence is predominately SOV. The OSV is something I've only seen occasionally where the subject gets stuck into the middle, which I think is for emphasis. Once you add other things, the sentence still follows that format somewhat unless it's a compound sentence. Adverbs and adjectives usually go right before the words they describe. Conditionals usually go near the beginning of a sentence. Like 病気になったら、医者に掛かるべきでしょう。(byouki ni nattara, isha ni kakaru beki deshou) "If you're getting sick, you should see a doctor, shouldn't you?". I'll try to include some formatting when I get around to writing about more complete sentences.

so, all conditionals have 'tag questions' in jap? because when u helped me out with the translation, u also wrote a conditinal with a tagQuest within.. is that a rule? or maybe i'm overtaking [correct verb?] next lessons..?

waaaaa there are more pronouns than I imagined... damn! i'm wishing to be on vacation soon...

Do you mean the deshou? That's more of a quirk I guess. I don't think you need it, but the Japanese I learned to use tends to be kind of soft. Lot's of だよね、なあ、だろう、and でしょう's. You could change it to desu, and it would sound more like "If you're sick, you should really go see a doctor.".

And yeah, I had no idea there were that many pronouns. I've only heard a handful of them used with any frequency.

Watashi can be used by most people without any problems. Watakushi is definitely feminine sounding, likely to be used only by very polite women. Don't really know about atai, but I'm guessing it's also used by women. I've heard atashi used to sound cute, and it's also feminine.

Ore, boku, and ware are all masculine. Boku is okay for general use, though it may kind of sound harsh? Ore and ware sound more punkish to me.

Watakushi is not particularly feminine sounding if you are an adult male. It is just very formal. My copy of "こころ” gives that as the furigana for the narrator's 私。That narrator is not overly effeminate.

But, if you are a young man both watashi and watakushi are effeminate. I am old enough that watashi is appropriate, but Krikit (just to give an example) might not be. Since he is an innocent sort he ought to use "boku", I imagine. That is the word that refined young men use to refer to themselves. He could also call himself "ore"- that used to have a rough flavor, but I think it is more accepted now. I am an older man, so I will generally use watashi, but if I am writing an essay I might use "boku" if I want to indicate humility in a certain passage.

Watashi is feminine if used by a teenage boy because girls are supposed to adopt that form by their early teens. Some of them do use "boku "though, and there is a lot of strife around that. Anyway, these words cannot be divorced from context. I am 36 years old, so I don't sound like a girl when I say watashi. But if you are a 16 year old boy you will sound very effeminate if you call yourself watashi.

I really don't know about the proper use of all the pronouns. I just remembered that in my college classes, my professor didn't like watakushi because she said it was too effeminate. Also, we were taught to use watashi as the general use of I, but I guess it could be effeminate for younger boys.

[Macko Darlack]

well, i also read that having a female teaching you is not the best if you're a boy/man... cause she''ll probably teach you the female-slang... so, for a boy, is it always better being taught by a male sensei?? if it is, must be aware when inscribing to classes. mukyaa, arigatou!
regards!