Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

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duncan
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by duncan »

Trabius wrote: I might have been unclear, but I meant she didn't like to use watakushi herself. If it's used by males, it would probably be (like you said) in really formal situations, but I doubt it would hurt to stick with watashi. As the classroom is a formal setting and we used watashi for politeness, I'd say it's a rather general purpose pronoun for mid-level formality. While watashi is softer, it doesn't really have the overtly feminine tones of say, atashi. But in a casual setting, I'd agree that using boku would be better than watashi.
Yeah- watashi is the safest "pronoun" for most adults, I think. The thing I was trying to get at (ineptly) was that it's age-dependent. Watashi isn't feminine if you're an adult male, but I think it often is if you're a teenager (and male- it's fine for teenage girls). I think if you use watashi as, say, a 14 year old boy it might, at the least, sound awfully prissy, if not downright girlish. Most textbooks don't really talk about this, probably because they assume that most people using them will be adults by the time they are actually speaking Japanese in Japan, and because it's pretty confusing. For instance, I am not quite sure at what point it stops being a bit prissy to use watashi as a guy, but I think that you need some context to really answer that. Anyway, sorry to beat a dead horse- it's just that it took me a while to put the age thing together with it, because no one ever mentions that in texts. That makes a lot of sense if you're teaching people to speak safe Japanese, but less if you're trying to tease out the nuances of a variety of people's dialogue in a text...

EDIT: also, since I don't want to double post, a couple of unrelated things: first, I'd call Japanese a "something something V" language (with qualifications). The (main) verb comes at the end of the sentence (or the copula does, of course). But the other elements of the sentence can be moved around rather freely, and still be "correct". I think this is partially because Japanese is postpositional. At any rate Japanese is less dependent on word order than English is when it comes to determining what is subject and what is object, etc. Right-headedness vs left-headedness also comes into play here, and that actually tends to give people bigger problems than plain word order.

And yes, Macko, Japanese have been known to correct my freely spoken (or written, for the most part) Japanese, but, maddeningly, mainly over things that they disapprove of rather than things that are clearly wrong (for instance, my correspondent would really like to think that I am a refined sort, despite lots of evidence to the contrary- thus it drives her nuts when I use gutter Japanese. On the other hand she doesn't bat an eyelash if I drop a particle here and there, as I still do, I'm afraid. About the most instructive comment she'll make if I really screw things up is one telling me that my Japanese is "kawaii", as if that were a compliment.) Well, I suppose that's actually well worth noting.
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Macko Darlack »

duncan wrote:And yes, Macko, Japanese have been known to correct my freely spoken (or written, for the most part) Japanese, but, maddeningly, mainly over things that they disapprove of rather than things that are clearly wrong (for instance, my correspondent would really like to think that I am a refined sort, despite lots of evidence to the contrary- thus it drives her nuts when I use gutter Japanese. On the other hand she doesn't bat an eyelash if I drop a particle here and there, as I still do, I'm afraid. About the most instructive comment she'll make if I really screw things up is one telling me that my Japanese is "kawaii", as if that were a compliment.) Well, I suppose that's actually well worth noting.
kawaii so..? :D gotta remember it :D

btw, to Trabius, would u plz explain the nasai, mas, kudasai stuff?? don't know if it's verb termination and/or tense thing and/or sth else... I thought kudasai was "please" or sth like that, but then onegai appeared, and that is "please" or "favor", dunno... cud u plz?? :D thx beforehand
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Trabius
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Trabius »

Macko Darlack wrote:btw, to Trabius, would u plz explain the nasai, mas, kudasai stuff?? don't know if it's verb termination and/or tense thing and/or sth else... I thought kudasai was "please" or sth like that, but then onegai appeared, and that is "please" or "favor", dunno... cud u plz?? :D thx beforehand[/color]
Yeah, those are verb conjugations. -Nasai is an imperative form that I think comes from nasaru. If I remember correctly, you should only use it to order someone that you don't need to be polite to (i.e. parent telling a child to do chores). -Masu is the regular formal form. Kudasai is an imperative form of kudasaru, which means to give and is a part of keigo(respectful language). Kudasai can be used with nouns to say "Please give me..." as in [Mizu wo kudasai] (Please give me some water). It's also used in conjugations with -te form to say "Please (verb)". -Te form also implies command, but the addition of kudasai is more formal.

Onegai is a noun meaning request, and when you add shimasu (to do), it's like saying "I am asking you to do me a favor" or something similar. You can think of it as "please" most of the time though. Onegaishimasu can be used with nouns just like kudasai as in [Mizu wo onegaishimasu], which has the same meaning as before though more polite. So in that case at least, onegai shimasu is used to sound more polite than kudasai, which I mentioned is imperative. I'll try to mention this sort of stuff somewhere later, though a complete explanation would be beyond the scope of the basics.
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Macko Darlack »

T_T so... since in verbs u only wrote about intransitive/transitive, future part(s) [maybe] would include verb conjugation, is that so? as far as i know, jap has two tenses, present and past, right? present's used also for future... kyaaaa! gonna take me lot of time to memorize this...

but thx, really I'm learning more now than reading lots and lots of pages that don't xplain too much. :D arigatou!

regards!!! :mrgreen:
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salv87
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by salv87 »

maybe name the verb part - Part 3? since part 2 was particles
I scrolled through the list, didn't see part 3, so I thought that there was no update ^_^
anyway, I like the pacing, also the complexity is ok for me.
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Zyzzyva165 »

Macko Darlack wrote:T_T so... since in verbs u only wrote about intransitive/transitive, future part(s) [maybe] would include verb conjugation, is that so? as far as i know, j*p has two tenses, present and past, right? present's used also for future... kyaaaa! gonna take me lot of time to memorize this...

but thx, really I'm learning more now than reading lots and lots of pages that don't xplain too much. :D arigatou!

regards!!! :mrgreen:


Some also call the tenses 'past-tense' and 'non-past tense', since 'non-past tense' includes future tense as well...

Oh, may I ask you to refrain from using the word 'J*p'? You may not know it, but it is quite an offensive word referring to the Japanese. I doubt the Japanese in B-T would like seeing that word here. Use Jpn for short. :D

Macko Darlack wrote:kawaii so..? :D gotta remember it :D

btw, to Trabius, would u plz explain the nasai, mas, kudasai stuff?? don't know if it's verb termination and/or tense thing and/or sth else... I thought kudasai was "please" or sth like that, but then onegai appeared, and that is "please" or "favor", dunno... cud u plz?? :D thx beforehand
Trabius wrote:Nasai is an imperative form that I think comes from nasaru. If I remember correctly, you should only use it to order someone that you don't need to be polite to (i.e. parent telling a child to do chores).
(In my humble opinion,)

'nasai' is not imperative. It is a 'command' form. Quoting a Japanese I asked before:



"Kite" (informal speech) or "Kite kudasai" (polite speech) would be requests - "come" (in a friendly tone) or "please come."

I agree that the names "command" and "imperative" can be confusing -

['-Nasai' form' of kuru] "Kinasai" is a gentle (but firm) words that maybe your teacher or parents might say to you.

[Imperative form of kuru]"Koi" is something, well, you are not likely to be told - that would be like your boss yelling at you if he is angry at you, or an angry dad at an ostinate child of his, or someone calling on their dog to come over...


So there you go. Request, command and imperative differentiated with examples. :D
"Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Zyzzyva165 »

Well, I just have something to add to this excellent thread. One of the best uses of -te form. I hadnt discovered that I do not know this thing until a late time, when I attempted to make sentences. So I'll just drop an explanation here...

"Linking verbs and adjectives" (/phrases/clauses...)

One of the uses of the -te form is to link verbs/adjectives/others...
For verbs, simply change the plain form to the -te form.
For i-adjectives, change them to -ku and add a te behind.
For na-adjectives, use a de instead of a na.

Examples:

"I eat rice and drink water every day."

Watashi wa mainichi gohan o tabete mizu o nomimasu."

"That book is new and expensive."

"Ano hon wa atarashikute takai desu."

"That guy is stupid and stingy."

"Aitsu ga (/wa) baka de kechi desu."

By i-adjectives, I mean EVERY i-adjectives. This include -tai, -nai...

(Hope I am clear enough...)
"Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Macko Darlack »

Zyzzyva165 wrote:Oh, may I ask you to refrain from using the word 'J*p'? You may not know it, but it is quite an offensive word referring to the Japanese. I doubt the Japanese in B-T would like seeing that word here. Use Jpn for short. :D
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
know nothing about that... my apologies if any read this, if not, I beg you pardon anyways.. yay, better no abbreviation... :D thx Zyzzyva :D

Zyzzyva165 wrote:(In my humble opinion,)

'nasai' is not imperative. It is a 'command' form. Quoting a Japanese I asked before:


"Kite" (informal speech) or "Kite kudasai" (polite speech) would be requests - "come" (in a friendly tone) or "please come."

I agree that the names "command" and "imperative" can be confusing -

('-Nasai' form' of kuru) "Kinasai" is a gentle (but firm) words that maybe your teacher or parents might say to you.

(Imperative form of kuru) "Koi" is something, well, you are not likely to be told - that would be like your boss yelling at you if he is angry at you, or an angry dad at an ostinate child of his, or someone calling on their dog to come over...


So there you go. Request, command and imperative differentiated with examples. :D
so, kudasai = request, -nasai = command, and apart an imperative. ok, got it. :D now... is -nai a negative suffix for a verb???

and an off-topic kinda related: what u think of translating as helping learn a language?? I mean, u think i'm gonna learn if i try to translate sth from spanish/english to japanese (which means, apply what i know and look for what i do not in order to apply it)?? :D
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Zyzzyva165 »

Macko Darlack wrote:know nothing about that... my apologies if any read this, if not, I beg you pardon anyways.. yay, better no abbreviation... thx Zyzzyva
No worries here. =p I made that mistake as well. I feel that most people have *absolutely* no idea that it is an offensive word. Go read up Wikipedia for more info.

so, kudasai = request, -nasai = command, and apart an imperative. ok, got it. now... is -nai a negative suffix for a verb???

[/quote]

Right. Yes. You add -nai to the ichidan verbs and -anai to the godan verbs. Eg: Taberu -->tabenai Kaeru --> kaeranai matsu --> matanai

[Maybe I skipped a little ahead of Trabius' course of sharing. You may have to learn other stuffs first before coming to this...] XD
Macko Darlack wrote:and an off-topic kinda related: what u think of translating as helping learn a language?? I mean, u think i'm gonna learn if i try to translate sth from spanish/english to japanese (which means, apply what i know and look for what i do not in order to apply it)??
Hehe... That's how I learn. I read up the grammar part, then tried to construct sentences. When it comes to the complicated bits, I asked the forum. It'll help......to some extent. You will come to a point when the simple stuffs are gone and that you'd need a textbook to continue. But before that, that's not a bad idea... 8)
"Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Macko Darlack »

Zyzzyva165 wrote:Hehe... That's how I learn. I read up the grammar part, then tried to construct sentences. When it comes to the complicated bits, I asked the forum. It'll help......to some extent. You will come to a point when the simple stuffs are gone and that you'd need a textbook to continue. But before that, that's not a bad idea... 8)

yay, think i'm gonna do that :D at least sth not too difficult. so in advance. but having some trouble to memorize kana... which would be a good way?? I have a freeware "Kana no Quiz" whose name i guess infers what it does. but somehow, it's kinda... :S :cry: a better way? writing them thousand times?? :?

antoher off-topic: where's the strees in お握り [onigiri]???
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Zyzzyva165 »

Marcko Darlack wrote:yay, think i'm gonna do that :D at least sth not too difficult. so in advance. but having some trouble to memorize kana... which would be a good way?? I have a freeware "Kana no Quiz" whose name i guess infers what it does. but somehow, it's kinda... :S :cry: a better way? writing them thousand times?? :?
Another good point is that when you translate sentences, you will find out what you missed- things that are essential but you have not learnt yet. Go for simple, basic sentences.

Writing them out is the *best* way to learn. Thousand times? You can go for more if you want. :D Last time, I learnt 5 kanas a day, practice writing them until I am happy, then write out random romajis (after which I write out the kana), then vice-versa. In a nutshell, *practice writing*. Quizzes like that are supplements, after you've learnt them and want to practice/master them. Anyway, kana shouldn't be a problem. You'll know what I mean when you try kanjis... :shock:
"Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Macko Darlack »

Macko Darlack wrote:i was practicing so while coming home on the bus :D now i'm done with vowels and K~* (10 kanas). let me see in 3 hours, then tomorrow, if i still remember :D yay, simply thinking of kanjis being 2000+ i'm kinda freaky T_T going first with hira and then kata is fine, right??
Yes, it is perfectly fine. In fact, that's what the Jpn education system does, for some reasons.
Trabius wrote: Well, you don't really need to know that many kanji. You could probably get away with knowing 3-400 basic kanji. I'm pretty sure I've forgotten a number of kanji, though being able to recognize them really helps in reading raws. If you can memorize that much info, go for it, but when you don't use a word/character for a while, it just disappears. Or at least, that's been happening to me.
Yeah, agreed. Since I'm experiencing the same thing with my Chinese as well... T.T
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Trabius
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Trabius »

I had thought imperative was synonymous command form, so thanks for the clarifications Zyzzyva165. Feel free to throw out whatever information you like. It's going to be a while before I get any further with verbs. I'm trying to order it so everything accumulates, but it doesn't seem to be going well. I really should have done negatives somewhere earlier, and it's kind of tedious writing out the rules of conjugating after I've gotten used to doing most of them without thinking. My lack of organization skills doesn't help either.

I wish I could just jump to -te form and beyond, but that wouldn't make much sense to someone who isn't already familiar with Japanese. Seriously though, I'm worried that the first post of thread could get huge if I'm not careful.
Zyzzyva165 wrote:
Marcko Darlack wrote:yay, think i'm gonna do that :D at least sth not too difficult. so in advance. but having some trouble to memorize kana... which would be a good way?? I have a freeware "Kana no Quiz" whose name i guess infers what it does. but somehow, it's kinda... :S :cry: a better way? writing them thousand times?? :?
Another good point is that when you translate sentences, you will find out what you missed- things that are essential but you have not learnt yet. Go for simple, basic sentences.
Good advice so long as you can figure out what the sentence means. Some grammar points aren't obvious without explanation, though you might be able to use context.
Macko Darlack wrote:i was practicing so while coming home on the bus :D now i'm done with vowels and K~* (10 kanas). let me see in 3 hours, then tomorrow, if i still remember :D yay, simply thinking of kanjis being 2000+ i'm kinda freaky T_T going first with hira and then kata is fine, right??


Well, you don't really need to know that many kanji. You could probably get away with knowing 3-400 basic kanji. I'm pretty sure I've forgotten a number of kanji, though being able to recognize them really helps in reading raws. If you can memorize that much info, go for it, but when you don't use a word/character for a while, it just disappears. Or at least, that's been happening to me.

antoher off-topic: where's the strees in お握り [onigiri]???
I don't think there's any real stress. If there is though, it might be on the gi? Because when I say it in my head, onigiri sounds kind of flat with just the slightest pause between oni and giri. Or does that mean the stress is on ni? I'm pretty bad at those inflections, like with 雨 and 飴. I always forget which one goes up and which one goes down.
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Macko Darlack »

Trabius wrote:Good advice so long as you can figure out what the sentence means. Some grammar points aren't obvious without explanation, though you might be able to use context.
well, then i'll do my best. but first kanas :D
Trabius wrote:Well, you don't really need to know that many kanji. You could probably get away with knowing 3-400 basic kanji. I'm pretty sure I've forgotten a number of kanji, though being able to recognize them really helps in reading raws. If you can memorize that much info, go for it, but when you don't use a word/character for a while, it just disappears. Or at least, that's been happening to me.
:shock: that really happens?? :? :? i'll go for the basic then :D but when you mean you remember a kanji, you mean write them too, or just recognizing 'em?? and still there are people who know 6000+ :shock: :shock: impressive. but japanese study kana and kanji all their school-life, right? so that's... 10 years?? haven't got that much time...
I don't think there's any real stress. If there is though, it might be on the gi? Because when I say it in my head, onigiri sounds kind of flat with just the slightest pause between oni and giri. Or does that mean the stress is on ni? I'm pretty bad at those inflections, like with 雨 and 飴. I always forget which one goes up and which one goes down.
i remember hearing it, but not remember the pronunciation... yeah, 'cause i think it's o-NI-gi-ri... but yesterday I heard a friend of mine say o-ni-GI-ri, that's why the question.. i will look for it at utube, then...

C'ya!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Intro to Basic Japanese Grammar

Post by Zyzzyva165 »

Umm... How should I say it... I'm very, very sorry Macko Darlack. I wanted to quote your post, but I accidentally pressed the 'edit' button. Then, voila, your post was edited. Erm... What was the content of your post again? Mind editing it back? I'm very, very sorry for this. My bad. :( (Still trying to get used to the additional buttons on other people's post when you are a moderator.)
"Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle."
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